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Discussion Starter #1
Strictly speaking not comparable to the performance of the MachE, space wise it is and there is dealer support, availability of parts, quality control, financing and leasing!

What to me is intriguing: the Cost: with every bell and whistle $43,000 less Federal Tax Credit of $7,500.

The switch to BEV is happening right before our eyes: this is great for the consumer!

see: Toyota RAV4 Prime vs. RAV4 Hybrid: 5 Reasons to Go Prime and 5 More to Go Hybrid
 

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Plus ADMs that are reported at $10-15K. Only 5,000 will be made in the first year so they'll be almost as rare as Mach E First Editions.
 

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Strictly speaking not comparable to the performance of the MachE, space wise it is and there is dealer support, availability of parts, quality control, financing and leasing!

What to me is intriguing: the Cost: with every bell and whistle $43,000 less Federal Tax Credit of $7,500.

The switch to BEV is happening right before our eyes: this is great for the consumer!

see: Toyota RAV4 Prime vs. RAV4 Hybrid: 5 Reasons to Go Prime and 5 More to Go Hybrid
Unfortunately, there will be so few built (Prime / PHEV) and limited states sold in that none of them will sell for MSRP the first year of production. You can expect ADM anywhere up to $10k if you want the Prime (PHEV) version.
 

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Strictly speaking not comparable to the performance of the MachE, space wise it is and there is dealer support, availability of parts, quality control, financing and leasing!

What to me is intriguing: the Cost: with every bell and whistle $43,000 less Federal Tax Credit of $7,500.

The switch to BEV is happening right before our eyes: this is great for the consumer!

see: Toyota RAV4 Prime vs. RAV4 Hybrid: 5 Reasons to Go Prime and 5 More to Go Hybrid
Also, why would you want to support a manufacturer who a) does not support EV moving forward and b) does not support clean air initiatives / global warming solutions like CA and other states have put in place. They are actively working against them, unlike Ford.
 

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I don't see how a PHEV that travels 42 miles on electric is a competitor to an EV. I've bee driving a PHEV for over two years and it's great for around town but then it's an ICE, albeit one that gets in the mid to upper 30s on MPG. Perhaps a better lead would have been ONE MORE STEP TOWARD THE FUTURE FOR TOYOTA
 

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Discussion Starter #8
There is a cautionary tell with both MSRP and ADM - which also applies to the MachE: The Audi e-tron:

My friend has been looking for one here in the NYC Metropolitan area: Initially in limited production, selling at full MSRP, other cars have quickly passed them by as to range and pricing:

When he started his search 4 months ago there were 66 e-trons available. two months ago 65; last month 64. He is picking his up tomorrow after which he expects there will be 63 available.

When he started his search, for 3 years 10K miles per year, the leases were $1200 per month. Two months ago they dropped to $900 per month. He countered with $900 per month for two years, all in, taxes included and no cap cost reduction.

He waited and two weeks later the dealer accepted. The MSRP of the Etron $76,300: with tax $82,800.

BEV are similar to computers in that every year there will be new ones that are cheaper and better. My friend expects in two years there will be better and cheaper models to choose from.

Because of this he will not buy, only lease and the shorter the lease term the better.

For the same reasons I will only lease (Ford Option Plan) and if the plan is structured with a balloon payment equal to 44% of MSRP, as presently indicated, I am afraid that I will not be taking possession.

I will wait as I believe prices will continue to drop and range will continue to increase.

Similarly there may be a few who will pay an ADM for the RAV4 Prime: I think those that do, in a very short time, will regret doing so.
 

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There is a cautionary tell with both MSRP and ADM - which also applies to the MachE: The Audi e-tron:

My friend has been looking for one here in the NYC Metropolitan area: Initially in limited production, selling at full MSRP, other cars have quickly passed them by as to range and pricing:

When he started his search 4 months ago there were 66 e-trons available. two months ago 65; last month 64. He is picking his up tomorrow after which he expects there will be 63 available.

When he started his search, for 3 years 10K miles per year, the leases were $1200 per month. Two months ago they dropped to $900 per month. He countered with $900 per month for two years, all in, taxes included and no cap cost reduction.

He waited and two weeks later the dealer accepted. The MSRP of the Etron $76,300: with tax $82,800.

BEV are similar to computers in that every year there will be new ones that are cheaper and better. My friend expects in two years there will be better and cheaper models to choose from.

Because of this he will not buy, only lease and the shorter the lease term the better.

For the same reasons I will only lease (Ford Option Plan) and if the plan is structured with a balloon payment equal to 44% of MSRP, as presently indicated, I am afraid that I will not be taking possession.

I will wait as I believe prices will continue to drop and range will continue to increase.

Similarly there may be a few who will pay an ADM for the RAV4 Prime: I think those that do, in a very short time, will regret doing so.
While I can see your points on upgrades to the technology (not as sure about prices dropping), it's been stated numerous times that the Options Plan is not a lease you are purchasing the vehicle with the option to "turn it in" at a predetermined price. I don't see how that differs from a traditional vehicle purchase where you pay and if you return it to the dealer they give you the wholesale Black Book price for that week. Ford isn't forcing anyone to turn it in, one can sell the vehicle at any time during the period in question and pay off the balance of the MSRP. In the case of the FE there may actually be a demand for the limited edition (or not) but it's not a lease no matter the amount on the back end and therefore no necessity to return the vehicle to the lessor. For those unfamiliar with the Black Book unlike KBB and NADA it's updated weekly based on demand/sales/availability. So if you are opposed to "purchasing" the MMe that's understandable but in my case I will enjoy driving the Mach E while I have it and do whatever with it when I choose to make a change in the future. Assuming that the future doesn't involve the planet being struck by a giant meteor or my partying during my "Woodstock Years" finally catching up with me.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
While I can see your points on upgrades to the technology (not as sure about prices dropping)
I have been following Tesla over the past 3/5 years. The prices have dropped and technology has increased. This is the nature of BEV. Do you see a reason for the MachE to be different? I do not.

it's been stated numerous times that the Options Plan is not a lease you are purchasing the vehicle with the option to "turn it in" at a predetermined price. I don't see how that differs from a traditional vehicle purchase where you pay and if you return it to the dealer they give you the wholesale Black Book price for that week.
I totally disagree: In lieu of leasing Ford has come up with the "Ford Option Plan". It acts just as a lease does, complete with a balloon that acts like a residual in a lease. The problem is that unlike a traditional lease where the residual varies from 53% to 62% for 3 years, 10K miles per, the balloon presently is at 43%. This makes the monthly payments as compared to a similarly priced car literally "go through the roof".

I know of no dealer when you purchase a car who will put in writing that at the end of three years, if you drive less than 30,000, he will give a sum certain for your car. No dealer will stick his neck out guessing what a car he sells today will be worth in 3 years.

As you know wholesale Black Book, usually determined by Manheim sales, changes monthly and sometimes even weekly.

By leasing you take the uncertainty of the depreciation component out of the cost of ownership.

Until Ford comes up with a "lease", we are left with three options;

  • Buy the MachE outright
  • Finance the purchase of the MachE either through Ford or a third party lender
  • Opt for the "Ford Option Plan"
For those of us who do not want to buy the only option is the "Ford Option Plan". But I am not stupid not to realize with a 43% balloon payment at the end:

  • There will be equity in the car that I will not want to walk away from, which makes the Ford Option Plan nothing but a deferred purchase plan; or
  • Ford does not think the MachE will hold its value in which case I do not want to own a vehicle that loses 57% of its value in three years.
If Ford truly had confidence in the MachE, it would offer an "Option Plan" with a much higher balloon payment. If Ford does not have confidence than we should we?



.
 

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I have been following Tesla over the past 3/5 years. The prices have dropped and technology has increased. This is the nature of BEV. Do you see a reason for the MachE to be different? I do not.



I totally disagree: In lieu of leasing Ford has come up with the "Ford Option Plan". It acts just as a lease does, complete with a balloon that acts like a residual in a lease. The problem is that unlike a traditional lease where the residual varies from 53% to 62% for 3 years, 10K miles per, the balloon presently is at 43%. This makes the monthly payments as compared to a similarly priced car literally "go through the roof".

I know of no dealer when you purchase a car who will put in writing that at the end of three years, if you drive less than 30,000, he will give a sum certain for your car. No dealer will stick his neck out guessing what a car he sells today will be worth in 3 years.

As you know wholesale Black Book, usually determined by Manheim sales, changes monthly and sometimes even weekly.

By leasing you take the uncertainty of the depreciation component out of the cost of ownership.

Until Ford comes up with a "lease", we are left with three options;

  • Buy the MachE outright
  • Finance the purchase of the MachE either through Ford or a third party lender
  • Opt for the "Ford Option Plan"
For those of us who do not want to buy the only option is the "Ford Option Plan". But I am not stupid not to realize with a 43% balloon payment at the end:

  • There will be equity in the car that I will not want to walk away from, which makes the Ford Option Plan nothing but a deferred purchase plan; or
  • Ford does not think the MachE will hold its value in which case I do not want to own a vehicle that loses 57% of its value in three years.
If Ford truly had confidence in the MachE, it would offer an "Option Plan" with a much higher balloon payment. If Ford does not have confidence than we should we?



.
I'm not certain what totally disagree means? I agreed with some of your points are you now disagreeing with your points that I agreed with eg. that technology will get better? As to prices on the MMe, as I stated, I have no idea what pricing will be in years to come. I have family and friends with Tesla's and yes once again I agree with you that the prices have dropped but the $7500 is no longer available. Having said that, unless Ford drops the MSRP by >$7500 those who got the Tax Break will be even or ahead. You also didn't address my point that at any time during the payment period as the Titled Owner (Lien aside) you're able to sell the vehicle, therefore you are "not walking away from equity". That can't be done with a lease, on which I believe I stated that I agreed with you but it's not an option for the MMe so I don't know what the point is to debate something that isn't in the mix. If and it's a big if, Ford changes to a lease and does offer price incentives after the tax credits expire then at that time it may be an option but as of today arguing leasing vs Purchase/Option Plan is Moot other than to point out the pros and cons if or when leasing becomes available.
 

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Interesting discussion. Regardless of EV or ICE as soon as you drive it off the lot, the vehicle looses value. Regardless of EV or ICE, as soon as the car rolls off the assembly line the tech inside is outdated and they're already working on next years tech in some super secret squirrel location. The one exception to this is the over the airwaves update that Ford Mach-e, Tesla, currently do & others will follow. So the "Software" tech will continue to be updated not unlike a computer OS. I give Ford & Tesla a big thumbs up for doing this. However, as I've recently learned with my 12 yr old Apple iMac, the Apple "Expert" told me that it was "Exceptionally Obsolete" & they couldn't update the OS security any longer. SO I purchased a Apple laptop pro that was delivered to my house 2 days later ... which when it arrived was already out of date on the software & had to be updated before I could use it. So I assume that this will happen with future EV's as well. Consumers will drop $1200 on a new iPhone every 12 or so months for what? An improved camera? A faster processor that you really won't or can't determine from your last phone.

In my research into EV's I've asked myself the same questions in this thread ... to buy now or wait a year or two until the tech is updated ... maybe a better battery ...etc. Maybe Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Rivian, or some other EV will have 1-3 more "techie" things in their EV. If I remember right computer technology doubles every 1 1/2 - 2 yrs. I have learned life is short ... six months from now you could be fighting for your life from some unknown bug or the big C or simply get hit by some dumbass who blows through a light texting. So why not buy it now? Enjoy it because we all know we'll enjoy the Mach e & the tech it currently has & the software updates to follow. I have a friend who bought a BMW M3, put in THOUSANDS of upgrades to make it faster yet has less than 2500 miles on it. I on the other hand have a Lexus convertible with 140k miles on it. Because I drive it ... it's meant ... hell most cars are meant to be enjoyed & you can do that ONLY by driving it ... EVERY WHERE and not letting it sit in the garage looking at it.

Will battery tech improve ... sure it will but no one knows for sure when. 2021 could be a substantial breakthrough in battery tech & increase the average range to 400 miles. But it'll take another 12-24 months to enter the EV world due to current supply & contracts for current battery tech. If you wait for that 18-24 months for new battery tech are you going to wait for another 18 months for rumors of other type of improved tech? How long have Tesla owners been waiting for a completely self autonomous self driving vehicle?

So I guess you have to ask a question ... the same question I have asked myself. Buy/rent it now & enjoy it for 2, maybe 5 yrs ... or even a dozen years. It's been a philosophical question & discussion ... thank you all. I'm off my soapbox now.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
During the session, the people from Ford acknowledged that many people, especially in the Northeast lease as opposed to buying. For them, the Ford Spokesman said Ford has created the "Ford Option Plan".

I live in the Northeast and have been leasing since 1982. I am not interested in buying a MachE. I am only interested in leasing a MachE. The only option I have at the present time is the Ford Option Plan.

There is an old saying that "if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it probably is a duck"

The Ford option plan has monthly payments significantly less than straight financing as a lease does,, has a balloon payment at the end which you can pay or turn in the car to Ford as a lease does. If looks like a lease, has monthly payments like a lease and at the end you can turn in the car like a lease, it probably is a lease.

When you dive into the terms you find that the balloon payment at the end represents only 43% of the original MSRP. With a balloon payment so low, I characterized the Ford Option Plan as nothing more than a "deferred purchase plan" disguised as a lease.

On the other hand, if 43% actually represents what Ford thinks the MachE will be worth after three years, then this is a very, very expensive lease.

We are all speculating now. We must wait until the MachE arrives and see what Ford is offering by way of "leasing". If I know what a comparably equipped Tesla Model Y leases for, I am sure Ford does as well and will price their version of leasing, regardless of what it is called, accordingly.

'The fact is that at this price point, $50,000 to $60,000 leasing is a big percentage of sales. Failure to be competitive on monthly lease terms will hurt the sales of the MachE.
 

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Interesting discussion. Regardless of EV or ICE as soon as you drive it off the lot, the vehicle looses value. Regardless of EV or ICE, as soon as the car rolls off the assembly line the tech inside is outdated and they're already working on next years tech in some super secret squirrel location. The one exception to this is the over the airwaves update that Ford Mach-e, Tesla, currently do & others will follow. So the "Software" tech will continue to be updated not unlike a computer OS. I give Ford & Tesla a big thumbs up for doing this. However, as I've recently learned with my 12 yr old Apple iMac, the Apple "Expert" told me that it was "Exceptionally Obsolete" & they couldn't update the OS security any longer. SO I purchased a Apple laptop pro that was delivered to my house 2 days later ... which when it arrived was already out of date on the software & had to be updated before I could use it. So I assume that this will happen with future EV's as well. Consumers will drop $1200 on a new iPhone every 12 or so months for what? An improved camera? A faster processor that you really won't or can't determine from your last phone.

In my research into EV's I've asked myself the same questions in this thread ... to buy now or wait a year or two until the tech is updated ... maybe a better battery ...etc. Maybe Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Rivian, or some other EV will have 1-3 more "techie" things in their EV. If I remember right computer technology doubles every 1 1/2 - 2 yrs. I have learned life is short ... six months from now you could be fighting for your life from some unknown bug or the big C or simply get hit by some dumbass who blows through a light texting. So why not buy it now? Enjoy it because we all know we'll enjoy the Mach e & the tech it currently has & the software updates to follow. I have a friend who bought a BMW M3, put in THOUSANDS of upgrades to make it faster yet has less than 2500 miles on it. I on the other hand have a Lexus convertible with 140k miles on it. Because I drive it ... it's meant ... hell most cars are meant to be enjoyed & you can do that ONLY by driving it ... EVERY WHERE and not letting it sit in the garage looking at it.

Will battery tech improve ... sure it will but no one knows for sure when. 2021 could be a substantial breakthrough in battery tech & increase the average range to 400 miles. But it'll take another 12-24 months to enter the EV world due to current supply & contracts for current battery tech. If you wait for that 18-24 months for new battery tech are you going to wait for another 18 months for rumors of other type of improved tech? How long have Tesla owners been waiting for a completely self autonomous self driving vehicle?

So I guess you have to ask a question ... the same question I have asked myself. Buy/rent it now & enjoy it for 2, maybe 5 yrs ... or even a dozen years. It's been a philosophical question & discussion ... thank you all. I'm off my soapbox now.
CARPE DIEM. Every day is one less on the backend so enjoy it NOW
 

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Isn't the Ford options plan so you could collect the tax incentives? In my case Federal and State (NY) add to $9,500. After all said and done, isn't the total out of pocket $ to drive 30K miles (or whatever miles the terms of the lease is) the only number that matters?
I have a spreadsheet for every vehicle I own/have owned which calculates the ¢/mile. Taking into account for all lease/purchase, maintenance, etc costs.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk
 

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I considered the Rav4 Prime, but the cabin space is constricting. They have a console ramp to the dashboard that limits movement on the driver's right-hand side.
 
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