[JTK44]

see: https://www.yahoo.com/news/consumer-reports-survey-shows-strong-171739184.html

 

[FISHEV]

A bit vague with "heard of" and "would consider" vs. actively shopping.

11% was on one of the surveys, so small actual buying market or EV's in US.

This is reflected in CR's number of only 4% actively considering an EV vs. "sometime in the future"

 

[Summerlin Bob]

see: https://www.yahoo.com/news/consumer-reports-survey-shows-strong-171739184.html

Great post, thanks and as someone that has been participating in the CR surveys for decades it's critical to ask questions like "have you heard of..." and "would you consider" in order to get a sense of those in the market place who are not members of an EV Forum and may or may not understand all that is developing in the switch from ICE. Two examples: a family member who just purchased a Subaru Forrester ICE when I suggested looking at a PHEV had no idea how they worked. A long time friend who has been a Ford F-150 owner for as long as I can recall responded to an article on the Ford F-150 Hybrid and BEV with "I don't see myself ever owning an electric truck". Keep in mind that this person averages over a 100 miles of driving per day at California fuel prices and has a garage where he could plug in.
There are many people who will respond to BEVs vs ICE vehicles by stating "well you ignored that the electricity comes from coal fired generating plants" , fact is in West Virginia with the "dirtiest" electric grid a BEV will reduce emissions by 20% and in a State like Idaho or Vermont by more than 90%. Also, that a BEV can make up for any additional emissions from the manufacturing process (batteries etc.) within six to eighteen months of driving.
Those of us who have been driving a PHEV or a BEV and especially those of us on forums tend to be the vast exception and not the common everyday ICE owner.

Consumer Reports has no financial relationship with advertisers on this site.
The results from Consumer Reports’ latest nationwide survey on electric cars shows that public perception of EVs is inching toward the mainstream (pdf). Although only 30 percent of survey respondents report knowing much about EVs, almost all had at least heard of them. More significant is the level of interest in EVs—71 percent of U.S. drivers say they would consider buying one at some point in the future, with nearly a third indicating interest in an EV for their next vehicle purchase. More than 70 percent of those surveyed say EVs would reduce air or climate pollution, and that automakers should offer plug-in electric pickups and SUV versions alongside their car EV models.
“Consumers can save a lot of money in the long run by switching to an EV,” says Chris Harto, CR’s senior sustainability policy analyst, who earlier this year authored a study highlighting the cost benefits of owning an EV instead of a traditional gasoline-powered vehicle. “We conducted this survey to learn more about people’s familiarity with EVs, and their attitudes regarding them, to better understand what might be holding them back from buying one.”
- ADVERTISEMENT -

A big part of the survey was determining what consumers see as barriers to EV ownership, Harto says. Not surprisingly, vehicle range and availability of charging stations were chief among U.S. motorists’ concerns. About half of the drivers surveyed say they would want an EV that could travel more than 300 miles between charges, and a little less than half say inadequate charging infrastructure along highways are keeping them from buying an EV. Among other reasons people cited for not buying an EV were purchase price (48 percent of respondents), insufficient knowledge about EVs (30 percent), and lack of a place to charge one at home (28 percent).
Despite concern over a dearth of public charging stations along highways, 71 percent of drivers say they would do most of their charging at home. CR has found that the owner of an EV with 250 miles of range can do 92 percent of their charging at home, assuming they have access to a garage or parking space with a home charger. The survey reveals that residents of apartment buildings are more likely to say they will charge an EV at a public fast charging station.
“American drivers are accustomed to having ready access to gas stations, and may not realize that if they have a personal garage or driveway, they’ll be doing most of their charging at home with an EV,” says Harto. “Even though we have found that the typical driver would make as few as six stops at a public charging station every year, a more robust network of fast charging stations would help alleviate buyers’ concerns about switching to an electric vehicle.”

 

[jolteon]

Charging remains the biggest barrier, of course. We need the automakers to step up and invest in infrastructure to charge the drove of EVs they are promising are on the way.

 

[Summerlin Bob]

Charging remains the biggest barrier, of course. We need the automakers to step up and invest in infrastructure to charge the drove of EVs they are promising are on the way.

It's important for the psyche but if in practice the average driver will charge at a 'roadside charger' six times a year is it critical?

 

[MachDrive]

It's important for the psyche but if in practice the average driver will charge at a 'roadside charger' six times a year is it critical?

For the other 359 days of the year not having to worry about refueling, i think it is a minimal worry for most.

 

[jolteon]

It's important for the psyche but if in practice the average driver will charge at a 'roadside charger' six times a year is it critical?

Yes. Unquestionably yes.

They will not buy the car if they don't think they can use a roadside charger if they need one.

 

[jolteon]

For the other 359 days of the year not having to worry about refueling, i think it is a minimal worry for most.

100% disagree. Nobody buys their F-350 for commuting. They buy it once a year to tow the boat to the cottage, and once a year to tow it back. 363 days a year a Fusion could have done the job, and they could have rented a truck for those two days, but they don't. Consumers are not - and have never been - logical creatures.

 

[JTL]

I personally think price is a barrier for a lot of people. Yes, you can get a very small EV pretty cheap but when compared to a ICE vehicle of the same size they are expensive. The second issue for me is resale. I usually keep my cars for 8-10 years and I drive very few miles per year so an EV would be a good fit for. We currently have an 8 year old CX5, our only vehicle, and it has 24,000 miles on it. Looks showroom new. Having said that, what if I don't like the EV after a year of driving due to mechanical issues? There was a person on another forum who had an Audi EV for which he paid about $80K. According to him it was one problem after another all requiring dealer service. On one of his last visits he was admiring a new Audi SUV ICE and asked about trading. They offered him $40K and the car had about 6K miles as I recall. I really like the MME and look forward to seeing and driving one soon, but I may wait a year to purchase. Lots of new EV's hitting the market so I don't think dealers will be able randomly increase prices, in fact there may even be some negotiation. Anyway these are just my observations and opinions.

 

[JTK44]

I personally think price is a barrier for a lot of people. Yes, you can get a very small EV pretty cheap but when compared to a ICE vehicle of the same size they are expensive. The second issue for me is resale. I usually keep my cars for 8-10 years and I drive very few miles per year so an EV would be a good fit for. We currently have an 8 year old CX5, our only vehicle, and it has 24,000 miles on it. Looks showroom new. Having said that, what if I don't like the EV after a year of driving due to mechanical issues? There was a person on another forum who had an Audi EV for which he paid about $80K. According to him it was one problem after another all requiring dealer service. On one of his last visits he was admiring a new Audi SUV ICE and asked about trading. They offered him $40K and the car had about 6K miles as I recall. I really like the MME and look forward to seeing and driving one soon, but I may wait a year to purchase. Lots of new EV's hitting the market so I don't think dealers will be able randomly increase prices, in fact there may even be some negotiation. Anyway these are just my observations and opinions.

I agree with you: In the next 2-3 years there will be a plethora of new EV's at different price points.

I expect:

• Range to dramatically increase
• Charging times to dramatically decrease
• Prices to come down

All of the above do not bode well for the resale value of current EV's.

Many, many years ago Mercedes introduced a new S class that was thousands of dollars more than the previous model. It sold well for about 4 to 6 months, then the cars sat on the dealer's lots begging for customers. The following year, most of the extra's became standard equipment and the price was reduced by several thousands.

I see EV's today in a similar position: Initial production will sell, then there will be lull in sales as people start to compute the difference in cost between an EV and an ICE: the fact is that most people either finance or lease their car so the monthly payment is critical not some theoretical savings 5 years from now between an EV and an ICE.

On a monthly payment basis, at the present time, EV's are not competitive with ICE.

However, in age, I am past the 3/4 century mark, so realistically if I want to enjoy an EV I have to do it now rather than later. Other people have the opportunity to "wait and see" and that is exactly what I predict will happen.

Besides price, availability of charging on route is another detriment: On Long Island we just had 6 to 8 inches of snow. Who wants to be stranded, along side the road in an EV watching the range decrease to zero?

 

[JTL]

I agree with you: In the next 2-3 years there will be a plethora of new EV's at different price points.

I expect:

• Range to dramatically increase
• Charging times to dramatically decrease
• Prices to come down

All of the above do not bode well for the resale value of current EV's.

Many, many years ago Mercedes introduced a new S class that was thousands of dollars more than the previous model. It sold well for about 4 to 6 months, then the cars sat on the dealer's lots begging for customers. The following year, most of the extra's became standard equipment and the price was reduced by several thousands.

I see EV's today in a similar position: Initial production will sell, then there will be lull in sales as people start to compute the difference in cost between an EV and an ICE: the fact is that most people either finance or lease their car so the monthly payment is critical not some theoretical savings 5 years from now between an EV and an ICE.

On a monthly payment basis, at the present time, EV's are not competitive with ICE.

However, in age, I am past the 3/4 century mark, so realistically if I want to enjoy an EV I have to do it now rather than later. Other people have the opportunity to "wait and see" and that is exactly what I predict will happen.

Besides price, availability of charging on route is another detriment: On Long Island we just had 6 to 8 inches of snow. Who wants to be stranded, along side the road in an EV watching the range decrease to zero?

Well said. I am 74 and given the length of time I keep a car and the limited use I suspect my next car will be my last so I want to get it right. I am a cash buyer so I see a big number on the check I write but I look at lease terms to get an idea of what the dealer/mfgr thinks the vehicle will be worth down the road based on the residual value. When I purchased my CX5 I paid $30K out the door, 8 years later it is worth 50% of the original value, I can't see that happening with an EV at the stage of the game. Technology can be devastating to prices and the EV is all about new tech. Not really much new stuff on ICE other than style, even EPA ratings have seemingly hit a wall. I also browse the VW ID4 forum and those early adopters are excited, not unlike the MME folks. I can only wonder how many placed reservations evaporate once the vehicles are delivered to the dealers.

 

[JTK44]

Well said. I am 74 and given the length of time I keep a car and the limited use I suspect my next car will be my last so I want to get it right. I am a cash buyer so I see a big number on the check I write but I look at lease terms to get an idea of what the dealer/mfgr thinks the vehicle will be worth down the road based on the residual value. When I purchased my CX5 I paid $30K out the door, 8 years later it is worth 50% of the original value, I can't see that happening with an EV at the stage of the game. Technology can be devastating to prices and the EV is all about new tech. Not really much new stuff on ICE other than style, even EPA ratings have seemingly hit a wall. I also browse the VW ID4 forum and those early adopters are excited, not unlike the MME folks. I can only wonder how many placed reservations evaporate once the vehicles are delivered to the dealers.

Another source, besides the residual on a lease is KBB.com for sale to dealers. Those values pretty much mimic wholesale values. When my lease is up, and I truly like the car and it has been trouble free, I check the buy back, aka residual against the KBB sale to dealer price. If the residual plus tax is about the KBB value I may buy the car.

So far every lease I have had has been inverted or supported: the residual is much higher than the car is worth and I return the car at the end of the lease.

I tend to drive German cars which I do not want to own out of warranty. Therefore I lease.

My wife keeps reminding me that my next car might be my last, so I should get what I want. Fortunately, my last two cars have been my "last" and I hope to have at least another 2 or 3 more last cars!

With regards to the MME, I am truly worried about the residual value or resale value: Up to now only Tesla's have managed to hold their value, but with the VW ID4, the MME and the Audi Q4 eTron and other BEV coming to market that I think will change.

Therefore I will only lease the MME.

What truly bothers me about the MME is:

• With the Ford Option plan, 3 years, 10K miles per year, the balloon is 44%. That is ridiculously low: If Ford has no confidence in the value of the MME why should I?
• Presently the lease residual is 57% but the interest rate is 5.54% and Ford as lessor, not you or I as the lessee, is keeping the Federal Tax Credit. Not only is the interest rate ridiculously high, but for Ford to keep the $7,500 Federal Tax Credit is totally unacceptable.

 

[Summerlin Bob]

100% disagree. Nobody buys their F-350 for commuting. They buy it once a year to tow the boat to the cottage, and once a year to tow it back. 363 days a year a Fusion could have done the job, and they could have rented a truck for those two days, but they don't. Consumers are not - and have never been - logical creatures.

I agree with the "consumers are not (always) logical" which is why it's extremely important for the industry to inform the buying public of the fact that for most of them they will be charging >90% of the time at home. The 300 mile 'family trip' is generally not a frequent event and the so called lack of charging locations being a major issue is in my opinion a 'red herring'. Yes things have a ways to go but the charging infrastructure is growing rapidly and will continue to expand. My 465 mile trips (one way) to Utah to visit family are between 3-6 times per year the other 359-362 days will be hooked to the Juice Box in my garage. I'm still considering a X-Country drive sometime PP (post plague) in 2021 and depending on how effective the Ford Pass App is on EA stations I do not believe that there will be major problems. I remember driving from NYC to San Diego in a VW Beetle during the 1973 fuel shortage and having to plan stops in 'out of the way' gas stations because many had no gas or were unwilling to sell to non locals. Range anxiety is an issue that will be resolved by information and infrastructure but make no mistake it will happen.

 

[Summerlin Bob]

I thought you would be interested in this story I found on MSN: Jennifer Granholm, Biden's expected Energy Department pick, could lead charge on electric cars Jennifer Granholm, Biden's expected Energy Department pick, could lead charge on electric cars

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

[JTK44]

I agree with the "consumers are not (always) logical" which is why it's extremely important for the industry to inform the buying public of the fact that for most of them they will be charging >90% of the time at home. The 300 mile 'family trip' is generally not a frequent event and the so called lack of charging locations being a major issue is in my opinion a 'red herring'. Yes things have a ways to go but the charging infrastructure is growing rapidly and will continue to expand. My 465 mile trips (one way) to Utah to visit family are between 3-6 times per year the other 359-362 days will be hooked to the Juice Box in my garage. I'm still considering a X-Country drive sometime PP (post plague) in 2021 and depending on how effective the Ford Pass App is on EA stations I do not believe that there will be major problems. I remember driving from NYC to San Diego in a VW Beetle during the 1973 fuel shortage and having to plan stops in 'out of the way' gas stations because many had no gas or were unwilling to sell to non locals. Range anxiety is an issue that will be resolved by information and infrastructure but make no mistake it will happen.

Originally inns were spaced 40 to 60 miles apart because that is how far a stage coach could go in a day.

Stops for Pony Express were further, but also how far you could travel in one day.

Along came the automobile and with it gas stations owned by the oil companies: without gas stations Henry Ford could not sell his cars and without cars, Rockefeller could not sell his gas.

The ICE gave Americans the ability to go where and when they wanted to: they did not have to actually make the trip, but if they wanted to they could. In college in the 60's from Pennsylvania to Florida with three other guys was doable in 24 hours. Did we do it often: No. But when we wanted to we could and did!

Presently that is what is missing in BEV's: the spontaneity of travel: the ability and freedom to go when and where we want to. That ability to go for example at 11 PM to visit someone 300 miles away is doable in an ICE. With a BEV that has a half charge, it is not.

Presently travel in BEV's is slightly akin to travel in a stage coach: with a stage coach trips were planned around inns: with a BEV you plan your trips around charging stations.

Here is a real life example: It is 8 PM and snowing on Long Island, road still open and passable. You want to get up to Vermont to go skiing tomorrow morning. With an ICE you jump in your car, regardless of how much fuel you have, and start. You do not worry about getting fuel along the way. You make a stop for 10 minutes in Connecticut, fill up and are in Vermont by midnight.

I think few of us would dream of taking that same spur of the moment trip in a BEV: First we would check how much charge we had. If not full then we would have to start planning our stops, making sure we had enough charge in case of a road closure. A simple "spur of the moment" drive becomes a logistical nightmare in a BEV.

This of course will change with time as more charging stations, not L2, but supercharging stations become available. But we are not there yet - not even Tesla and certainly non Tesla BEV's.

This is a catch 22: Until there are more BEV's there will not more charging stations and until there are more charging stations there will not more BEV's.

Ford and Rockefeller figured this out: Now we need mainline autos and the government to figure it out.

Finally for me at least, the joy of driving is on long trips - not short one to Costco or Home Depot. For short trips any car, either ICE or BEV will do and for these short trips, 10 or 15 miles, whether it is a Leaf, MME or Tesla will make no difference.

The difference is on long trips where you can experience the difference in an ICE between a Mercedes and a Nissan and in an EV between a MME and a Leaf. To do that we need a robust charging infrastructure.

Just my thoughts and $.02 and I accept I may be wrong and others will disagree.

 

[MachDrive]

@JTK44 , while I always fill up my gas tank before any storm as a matter of preparedness (i would charge a BEV the same way), i see your point on spontaneity in general.

Here is where there are certain expectations early adopters of new technology usually come to accept. The tech always will cost more initially, and the tech will exponentially get better in a shorter timeframe than mature tech will.

Its no secret that affordable, long range, quick charging BEVs will take a few years to reach market. In the meantime, we must decide if we are willing to accept the limitations that currently exist.

For me, I am willing to buy a car I don’t really need (i can easily get 5-7 more years from my current vehicle) and be an early adopter in order to help advance the industry as a whole.

A co-worker of mine who got his Model Y PE about two months ago asked me why I was choosing the MMe instead. After I told him the reasons I have outlined many times on this forum, i gave him one additional reason: I am willing to award Ford my early-adopter business because it is the first Legacy manufacturer to step out of the ‘compliance’ mindset. It succeed in developing a ground-up BEV, which I find both compelling and affordable. The result is not only a great BEV, but a great vehicle overall.

However, I am not your average consumer. The Consumer Reports survey reaffirmed what we all know here. The charging networks, public understanding, and price have to improve greatly in order to break through in the US market.

Edit: wording.

 

[JTL]

I am really on the fence. As an early adopter I would like to be rewarded with mfgr incentives and to date there are none. I can live with the less than perfect range and I believe the current tech in the car is good enough for me, but I hate to think my purchase is going to be sub 50% in 3 years with low miles. I have always been a cash buyer but if Ford would step up and support the early adopters with a high residual lease (before taking the Fed rebate) than I am all in. I would even care if the limited annual miles to 7500. I think right now the hype and excitement is so big with refundable deposits that Ford thinks we have a winner and a "no deal" product. Once the cancellations start rolling in due to reluctances or credit issues things may change. I really like most things about the car, especially the torque vs the ID4 which is a slug. Some of the design elements are not my favorites but overall it is very nice. Put on wider tires!

 

[Summerlin Bob]

@JTK44 , while I always fill up my gas tank before any storm as a matter of preparedness (i would charge a BEV the same way), i see your point on spontaneity in general.

Here is where there are certain expectations early adopters of new technology usually come to accept. The tech always will cost more initially, and the tech will exponentially get better in a shorter timeframe than mature tech will.

Its no secret that affordable, long range, quick charging BEVs will take a few years to reach market. In the meantime, we must decide if we are willing to accept the limitations that currently exist.

For me, I am willing to buy a car I don’t really need (i can easily get 5-7 more years from my current vehicle) and be an early adopter in order to help advance the industry as a whole.

A co-worker of mine who got his Model Y PE about two months ago asked me why I was choosing the MMe instead. After I told him the reasons I have outlined many times on this forum, i gave him one additional reason: I am willing to award Ford my early-adopter business because it is the first Legacy manufacturer to step out of the ‘compliance’ mindset. It succeed in developing a ground-up BEV, which I find both compelling and affordable. The result is not only a great BEV, but a great vehicle overall.

However, I am not your average consumer. The Consumer Reports survey reaffirmed what we all know here. The charging networks, public understanding, and price have to improve greatly in order to break through in the US market.

Edit: wording.

Absolutely right on, I know that buying a first year (new technology) vehicle has risks, I know that the charging infrastructure isn't where gas stations are for ICE vehicles, I know that on the occasional extended trips that I will have to entertain myself while my vehicle charges, I know that battery technology will improve and residuals will get higher. however as was posted above "consumers aren't always logical" ergo "I want one now so I'm buying one now"

 

[JTK44]

@JTK44 , while I always fill up my gas tank before any storm as a matter of preparedness (i would charge a BEV the same way), i see your point on spontaneity in general.

Here is where there are certain expectations early adopters of new technology usually come to accept. The tech always will cost more initially, and the tech will exponentially get better in a shorter timeframe than mature tech will.

Its no secret that affordable, long range, quick charging BEVs will take a few years to reach market. In the meantime, we must decide if we are willing to accept the limitations that currently exist.

For me, I am willing to buy a car I don’t really need (i can easily get 5-7 more years from my current vehicle) and be an early adopter in order to help advance the industry as a whole.

Me too and doubly so as I have large position in both Ford stock and bonds.

Like so many of us, because of Covid I am driving very, very little. Since January of last year I have put 3,000 miles on my car and it is leased!

What is also interesting is that my daughter, son in law and one year old grandson, who live in NYC but have been staying with us because of Covid, have zero, I mean zero interest in owning a car. In the past they would have been prime customers for the MME but cars in general are of no value to them: When they need to go somewhere they either rent or take a Uber: so much easier and far less expensive than owning a car.

A co-worker of mine who got his Model Y PE about two months ago asked me why I was choosing the MMe instead. After I told him the reasons I have outlined many times on this forum, i gave him one additional reason: I am willing to award Ford my early-adopter business because it is the first Legacy manufacturer to step out of the ‘compliance’ mindset. It succeed in developing a ground-up BEV, which I find both compelling and affordable. The result is not only a great BEV, but a great vehicle overall.

Ford at the outset said it expected to make a profit on the first MME. This is highly unusual as most car makers, their first entry into a market is either at cost or slight loss to enter a market dominated by one manufacturer as Tesla does. Then as production ramps up, with economies of scale, profits come later.

This is the only fault I find with Ford - especially from a consumer point of view.

However, I am not your average consumer. The Consumer Reports survey reaffirmed what we all know here. The charging networks, public understanding, and price have to improve greatly in order to break through in the US market.

I will be interesting to see by mid 2021 how sales are going for the MME. If Ford really is committed to BEV's, then selling 20,000 MME in the US, is not going to cut it. Porsche sells more than triple that amount, and they are only a "niche player".

If supporting the MME today is to incentivize Ford to produce more BEV's then Ford must be more competitive in price, financing options and leasing - the same commitment that Ford has to its ICE's.


[/QUOTE]

 

[Summerlin Bob]

I am really on the fence. As an early adopter I would like to be rewarded with mfgr incentives and to date there are none. I can live with the less than perfect range and I believe the current tech in the car is good enough for me, but I hate to think my purchase is going to be sub 50% in 3 years with low miles. I have always been a cash buyer but if Ford would step up and support the early adopters with a high residual lease (before taking the Fed rebate) than I am all in. I would even care if the limited annual miles to 7500. I think right now the hype and excitement is so big with refundable deposits that Ford thinks we have a winner and a "no deal" product. Once the cancellations start rolling in due to reluctances or credit issues things may change. I really like most things about the car, especially the torque vs the ID4 which is a slug. Some of the design elements are not my favorites but overall it is very nice. Put on wider tires!

Wider tires = rolling resistance = less range