Mach-E Forum | Ford Mustang Mach-E Forum and News banner

81 - 100 of 154 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
I'm waiting till next fall. I'm retired, my wife and I are basically driving once a week to the grocery store because of Covid. I sold my 2018 Q5 at the peak used car market last month and kept our fun to drive 2019 Q3, so waiting makes sense. Waiting to choose also makes sense.
 

·
Registered
Reserved First Edition Rapid Red Metallic
Joined
·
720 Posts
'Be careful about the gloating about Model Y production problems. Are you absolutely sure that Ford won't be like any other automaker with early production problems. We haven't even seen a production Mach-E yet. Model Y was introduced into the Covid mess, and newest deliveries are showing substantial improvement. Tesla has also been very aggressive in introducing production changes on the fly. Look at the changes being introduced by the new giant castings. It appears that the Berlin Model Ys will feature the new 4680 battery with the integrated central structure, followed by Texas, Fremont and Shanghai. Eastern US deliveries from Texas may have the Berlin model by next fall.

I plan to wait and see. Mach-E, Model Y, and Audi Q4 etron are still on my list for a next fall purchase. I need a dual motor AWD long range under $55,000 for NJ $5,000 rebate. Audi and Ford still have the Federal tax credit. With the $7,500, it looks like the Mach-E will be the best price unless Tesla lowers its price again.

I think you raise many valid points: So far all we have seen are promotionals from Ford. No one has driven the MachE, no one has examined it and I think it is extremely naive to think that the MachE being first year of production of an entirely new car, new platform and new engine/transmission will not have "first year growing pains".

Just look at the rollout of the new Explorer and three recalls within the first six months.

The question is not if there will be problems with the first MachE, but whether those problems will be serious or minor. A further question is will dealers have parts in stock to make repairs or like Tesla you wait weeks for repairs.

While I have converted my reservation to an order, I am reserving judgement on whether to purchase or not, depending on reviews and my actual driving experience.

Price of Model Y: Musk has stated that as efficiencies develop in the production of the Model Y, those savings will be passed onto the customers in reduced MSRP. Whether you believe that or not is not important. What is important is that as other BEV come to market, I think Tesla will try to maintain its dominance and if that requires further price reductions they will do it. I think by the time the MachE, premium AWD LR comes to market, which is the equivalent of the Model Y, even with the Federal tax credit of $7,500 the Model Y will still be cheaper.


.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
1,219 Posts
'Be careful about the gloating about Model Y production problems. Are you absolutely sure that Ford won't be like any other automaker with early production problems. We haven't even seen a production Mach-E yet. Model Y was introduced into the Covid mess, and newest deliveries are showing substantial improvement. Tesla has also been very aggressive in introducing production changes on the fly. Look at the changes being introduced by the new giant castings. It appears that the Berlin Model Ys will feature the new 4680 battery with the integrated central structure, followed by Texas, Fremont and Shanghai. Eastern US deliveries from Texas may have the Berlin model by next fall.

I plan to wait and see. Mach-E, Model Y, and Audi Q4 etron are still on my list for a next fall purchase. I need a dual motor AWD long range under $55,000 for NJ $5,000 rebate. Audi and Ford still have the Federal tax credit. With the $7,500, it looks like the Mach-E will be the best price unless Tesla lowers its price again.
We may voice the issues in a jovial and sarcastic way. But please, don’t misinterpret our concerns for gloating. This is not a matter of whether a car has problems or not.

As much preparation as you can do, with thousands of components a widget could fail. Its the law of averages. as they say, Sh!t happens. Most reasonable people understand this.

However, Tesla’s problems with the most mature part or the manufacturing process, body assembly and paint, baffles me. The Auto industry has had major advancements since the ‘80s in this field and Tesla had all the precedence to build upon. Why they didn’t? I can only assume hubris.

What fans, and the company, are failing to see: the major reason the US consumer stopped buying American and started buying Japanese cars in the 70’s and on was reliability and fuel-economy. Even though Ford and some others have, for the most part, become near or on-par with Japanese manufacturing, they still fight the stigma of the 70’s.

Its these consumers Tesla has to sell their vehicle to. If not, Tesla will never break their 2% of the US sales market.

The quality of the Tesla, specifically the Model Y, is a real issue. Body alignment aside, the glass roofs are separating from the body. There are others that are experiencing major wind and water intrusion from the roof, they are lucky the wind pressure didn’t rip theirs off too.

This is not a competition. The MMe most likely will have an issue of two. Ford will own up to it and fix them. Recall as a matter of precaution, stop the line if necessary. Every manufacturer currently does that, except Tesla.

Tesla fans should stop making excuses and accepting sub-par manufacturing. Stop buying their cars now, and they will fix the problems now, instead of selling crap and waiting 6-9 months for additional factories to come online.

Holding Tesla accountable is the only way they will improve.
 

·
Registered
Reserved First Edition Rapid Red Metallic
Joined
·
720 Posts
We may voice the issues in a jovial and sarcastic way. But please, don’t misinterpret our concerns for gloating. This is not a matter of whether a car has problems or not.

As much preparation as you can do, with thousands of components a widget could fail. Its the law of averages. as they say, Sh!t happens. Most reasonable people understand this.

However, Tesla’s problems with the most mature part or the manufacturing process, body assembly and paint, baffles me. The Auto industry has had major advancements since the ‘80s in this field and Tesla had all the precedence to build upon. Why they didn’t? I can only assume hubris.

What fans, and the company, are failing to see: the major reason the US consumer stopped buying American and started buying Japanese cars in the 70’s and on was reliability and fuel-economy. Even though Ford and some others have, for the most part, become near or on-par with Japanese manufacturing, they still fight the stigma of the 70’s.

Its these consumers Tesla has to sell their vehicle to. If not, Tesla will never break their 2% of the US sales market.

The quality of the Tesla, specifically the Model Y, is a real issue. Body alignment aside, the glass roofs are separating from the body. There are others that are experiencing major wind and water intrusion from the roof, they are lucky the wind pressure didn’t rip theirs off too.

This is not a competition. The MMe most likely will have an issue of two. Ford will own up to it and fix them. Recall as a matter of precaution, stop the line if necessary. Every manufacturer currently does that, except Tesla.

Tesla fans should stop making excuses and accepting sub-par manufacturing. Stop buying their cars now, and they will fix the problems now, instead of selling crap and waiting 6-9 months for additional factories to come online.

Holding Tesla accountable is the only way they will improve.

You are correct:

Hubris: Musk says the future of Tesla is that they have machines making machines and that this technology will make Tesla worth much, much more.

Think about this: their present machines cannot make a defect free car. The Tesla, aside for their technology, are not put together as well as the Yugo! Building a car where panels meet, windows do not leak and roofs do not blow off is not rocket science.

With all that in mind, whatever Tesla is doing, most auto manufacturers would be pillar by just a fraction of their faults.

Looking at the product, what auto manufacturer in their right mind, would ever copy Tesla's manufacturing methods or their technology.

HUBRIS!

.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
585 Posts
What fans, and the company, are failing to see: the major reason the US consumer stopped buying American and started buying Japanese cars in the 70’s and on was reliability
I was just reading this morning that the factory in germany is expected to have much better paint and in general much better quality. That is deeply disheartening - not that germany can do it right but that Tesla has ignored the problems in california and thus will perpetuate the stigma against american manufacturing. The only reason for that is one man's inability to admit he has ever made a mistake - and that actually angers me. It's also the reason I have no interest in buying a Tesla, even though the model 3 is the form factor I prefer over the CUV MME.
 

·
Premium Member
2018 Fusion Energi Burgundy Velvet Platinum
Joined
·
755 Posts
We may voice the issues in a jovial and sarcastic way. But please, don’t misinterpret our concerns for gloating. This is not a matter of whether a car has problems or not.

As much preparation as you can do, with thousands of components a widget could fail. Its the law of averages. as they say, Sh!t happens. Most reasonable people understand this.

However, Tesla’s problems with the most mature part or the manufacturing process, body assembly and paint, baffles me. The Auto industry has had major advancements since the ‘80s in this field and Tesla had all the precedence to build upon. Why they didn’t? I can only assume hubris.

What fans, and the company, are failing to see: the major reason the US consumer stopped buying American and started buying Japanese cars in the 70’s and on was reliability and fuel-economy. Even though Ford and some others have, for the most part, become near or on-par with Japanese manufacturing, they still fight the stigma of the 70’s.

Its these consumers Tesla has to sell their vehicle to. If not, Tesla will never break their 2% of the US sales market.

The quality of the Tesla, specifically the Model Y, is a real issue. Body alignment aside, the glass roofs are separating from the body. There are others that are experiencing major wind and water intrusion from the roof, they are lucky the wind pressure didn’t rip theirs off too.

This is not a competition. The MMe most likely will have an issue of two. Ford will own up to it and fix them. Recall as a matter of precaution, stop the line if necessary. Every manufacturer currently does that, except Tesla.

Tesla fans should stop making excuses and accepting sub-par manufacturing. Stop buying their cars now, and they will fix the problems now, instead of selling crap and waiting 6-9 months for additional factories to come online.

Holding Tesla accountable is the only way they will improve.
Your assessment is spot on. I absolutely understand technology glitches but paint, fit and finish and cabin road noise are not forgivable in a product that has been on the road for several years and essentially the Model Y is a Model 3 hatchback not a Cyber Truck.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
JTK44's link says it all. The Fremont paint shop IS a problem and new shop is in the works as in Berlin, Shanghai, and the upcoming Texas plant. Right now they are selling every car that they can build in Fremont. They'll figure how to do the upgrade just as they have with integrating the new castings and removing robots. A lot of mistakes along the way, but don't write off what they have learned and how fast they respond.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
1,219 Posts
Is Munro correct: make a car 95% correct and then get feedback to correct the 5%? I do not think so.
Munro is wrong. A 95% correct car is called an Alpha build, not ready for production. I’m surprised he would make such a statement.

You make a car to function 100% as designed. Customer feedback helps the car evolve into something more desirable and useful to buyers.

Complaints about glass roofs flying off are not the same feedback as “The shifter should be a little further from the steering wheel so I don’t hit it by accident.” The first should trigger the respose “holy mackerel! Stop the line and investigate right now!” The second would elicit the response “thats a good point, maybe we should consider on the next model refresh “

Right now they are selling every car that they can build in Fremont.
They shouldn’t be selling Model Y’s at all from Fremont. Stop the line and figure out your issues. The ones you see could be masking a greater problem.
If you can’t align the body-panels or get the glass roof to mount right, your main body-frame may not be square, or you spec’d your stampings wrong and your glass is warped.

Something is seriously wrong. Take a look Tesla and be transparent about it.

A lot of mistakes along the way, but don't write off what they have learned and how fast they respond.
You’ve missed my point. My argument has nothing to do with diminishing the innovations or technologies from Telsa. Tesla is making mistakes that shouldn’t be made, there are decades of data and example to learn from.

If all I’ve written has failed to make my point, then there is nothing more to be said.

Before I am written off as a Telsa hater and get attacked by the fan-base, let me just add I do not hate the company Tesla. In fact, I am in the process of buying a Tesla SolarRoof with PowerWalls. I am just shocked that Their Model 3 and Y cars can be so advanced on one hand, yet so inferior on the other. It is baffling to me.
 

·
Registered
Reserved First Edition Rapid Red Metallic
Joined
·
720 Posts
Munro is wrong. A 95% correct car is called an Alpha build, not ready for production. I’m surprised he would make such a statement.

You make a car to function 100% as designed. Customer feedback helps the car evolve into something more desirable and useful to buyers.

Complaints about glass roofs flying off are not the same feedback as “The shifter should be a little further from the steering wheel so I don’t hit it by accident.” The first should trigger the respose “holy mackerel! Stop the line and investigate right now!” The second would elicit the response “thats a good point, maybe we should consider on the next model refresh “



They shouldn’t be selling Model Y’s at all from Fremont. Stop the line and figure out your issues. The ones you see could be masking a greater problem.
If you can’t align the body-panels or get the glass roof to mount right, your main body-frame may not be square, or you spec’d your stampings wrong and your glass is warped.

Something is seriously wrong. Take a look Tesla and be transparent about it.



You’ve missed my point. My argument has nothing to do with diminishing the innovations or technologies from Telsa. Tesla is making mistakes that shouldn’t be made, there are decades of data and example to learn from.

If all I’ve written has failed to make my point, then there is nothing more to be said.

Before I am written off as a Telsa hater and get attacked my the fan-base, let me just add I do not hate the company Tesla. In fact, I am in the process of buying a Tesla SolarRoof with PowerWalls. I am just shocked that Their Model 3 and Y cars can be so advanced on one hand, yet so inferior on the other. It is baffling to me.
I agree!

If the MachE performs as per the videos, and the quality control is what we expect from mainline auto manufacturers, it will be interesting to see how not only Tesla sales hold up but what happens to the resale value of their cars.

Misaligned body parts squeak, air rushes in causing noise, and potholes rattle your car. Those defects with age only get worse - they never self correct!

I think anyone buying rather than leasing - return the car to the manufacturer after 3 years - and let the manufacturer deal with it - should reconsider.


.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
I agree!

If the MachE performs as per the videos, and the quality control is what we expect from mainline auto manufacturers, it will be interesting to see how not only Tesla sales hold up but what happens to the resale value of their cars.

Misaligned body parts squeak, air rushes in causing noise, and potholes rattle your car. Those defects with age only get worse - they never self correct!

I think anyone buying rather than leasing - return the car to the manufacturer after 3 years - and let the manufacturer deal with it - should reconsider.


.
No lease for me - what if I do hate it? Stuck for three years, I think I read there is no early buyout even. I feel like there are enough Tesla fans to provide demand for resale - issues on forums hasn’t seemed to slow down demand one bit.
 

·
Registered
Reserved First Edition Rapid Red Metallic
Joined
·
720 Posts
No lease for me - what if I do hate it? Stuck for three years, I think I read there is no early buyout even. I feel like there are enough Tesla fans to provide demand for resale - issues on forums hasn’t seemed to slow down demand one bit.
I hear you: but "if you hate it" is usually a reason to lease and not buy - you only keep the car for three years.

What I would be afraid of is the hit you will take selling the car.

For example on Cars.com, there are many Model 3's, with clean car fax reports, asking between $35,000 and $38,000. Cars are 2018 and 2019 models. That is a 25% to 30% hit in depreciation in only 2 years.

So if you buy and want to sell because you hate it, expect to take a huge hit!


.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
I hear you: but "if you hate it" is usually a reason to lease and not buy - you only keep the car for three years.

What I would be afraid of is the hit you will take selling the car.

For example on Cars.com, there are many Model 3's, with clean car fax reports, asking between $35,000 and $38,000. Cars are 2018 and 2019 models. That is a 25% to 30% hit in depreciation in only 2 years.

So if you buy and want to sell because you hate it, expect to take a huge hit!


.
No different than the 30%+ hit I’m taking on my 2020 Explorer ST after a year and 11K miles. Didn’t help that Ford lowered prices on 2021’s. Nice to be able to get out vs being trapped by a lease. Leased once, never again.
 

·
Registered
Reserved First Edition Rapid Red Metallic
Joined
·
720 Posts
No different than the 30%+ hit I’m taking on my 2020 Explorer ST after a year and 11K miles. Didn’t help that Ford lowered prices on 2021’s. Nice to be able to get out vs being trapped by a lease. Leased once, never again.
Put this into perspective:

If you lease, 12,000 miles per year, after three years you paid depreciation of 44% as the residual is 56%. That is depreciation of just under 15% per year.

By buying you have suffered in one year on your 2020 Explorer ST 30%. That is double the depreciation vs. a lease.

If you buy the Model Y, and Tesla lowers the selling price as they have been doing, your car will be worth even less than the Model 3 presently on Cars.com. and depreciation will be more.

Another point you forgot to consider is the sales tax. Buying vs. leasing is an additional $2,000/$3,000 out of your pocket.

Finally, if you truly hate your car, you can always have someone take over the lease. All you have to do is offer an incentive. Your total money out of pocket will be substantially less than buying and selling in a year.


.

.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Put this into perspective:

If you lease, 12,000 miles per year, after three years you paid depreciation of 44% as the residual is 56%. That is depreciation of just under 15% per year.

By buying you have suffered in one year on your 2020 Explorer ST 30%. That is double the depreciation vs. a lease.

If you buy the Model Y, and Tesla lowers the selling price as they have been doing, your car will be worth even less than the Model 3 presently on Cars.com. and depreciation will be more.

Another point you forgot to consider is the sales tax. Buying vs. leasing is an additional $2,000/$3,000 out of your pocket.

Finally, if you truly hate your car, you can always have someone take over the lease. All you have to do is offer an incentive. Your total money out of pocket will be substantially less than buying and selling in a year.


.

.
I would have been hard pressed to get someone to take over my Explorer lease had I leased. I like having the flexibility to switch vehicles even with the financial hit. Might not be the smartest but life is short. Have to say I liked my last two Explorers (‘15 and ‘17) better. Now onto a Model Y
 

·
Registered
Reserved First Edition Rapid Red Metallic
Joined
·
720 Posts
I would have been hard pressed to get someone to take over my Explorer lease had I leased. I like having the flexibility to switch vehicles even with the financial hit. Might not be the smartest but life is short. Have to say I liked my last two Explorers (‘15 and ‘17) better. Now onto a Model Y
If you leased and wanted to get out, put your car on Leasetrader.com or swapalese.com. Find out the lowest monthly payment, offer an incentive to reduce your payment so it is the lowest and you will be out of your lease in 30 days!

I have taken over several leases this way.

.
.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
If you leased and wanted to get out, put your car on Leasetrader.com or swapalese.com. Find out the lowest monthly payment, offer an incentive to reduce your payment so it is the lowest and you will be out of your lease in 30 days!

I have taken over several leases this way.

.
.
Yes, familiar with those sites. YMMV depending on circumstances. I did not have any luck on using Swapalease (I think it was that one) at the time. Too few miles left even thought I thought I guessed properly at 18K miles per year. That's another thing I do not like about leasing - predicting the number of miles needed. I have out of state jobs, local, etc. - very difficult to predict the future. I have also had it the other way, when I predicted too high and was way under, so essential wasted money on miles that I didn't need.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
1,219 Posts
Yes, familiar with those sites. YMMV depending on circumstances. I did not have any luck on using Swapalease (I think it was that one) at the time. Too few miles left even thought I thought I guessed properly at 18K miles per year. That's another thing I do not like about leasing - predicting the number of miles needed. I have out of state jobs, local, etc. - very difficult to predict the future. I have also had it the other way, when I predicted too high and was way under, so essential wasted money on miles that I didn't need.
Leasing vs buying, there are pros and cons to both. Then, there are variables unique to each individual. As with any purchase, thorough research is always recommended.

For this thread, one advantage Tesla has right now is a lease on the Model Y at a low price and assuming the loss (being they are not allowing a purchase option). Despite Tesla saying this will be their automated fleet, I can only surmise this is to keep delivery numbers high. I say this because the whole idea is to have customer-owned vehicles used for the shared fleet, why assume a fleet of vehicles and the costs associated if you don’t have to? No matter the reason, it makes the Model Y attainable to more consumers today.

Ford with the MMe, on the other hand, is at a disadvantage here, because they cannot assume the loss, promises were made to the shareholders regarding profit in the first year. So, even if a lease is offered, it will not be as low as the Model Y.

Ford created their Options plan, which falls short of being comparable to a lease. If you are planning to keep the MMe, The Ford Options plan is actually way more expensive than just financing outright from the start. First, because the initial APR is higher. Secondly, you will most likely not get the low introductory APRs when you go to refinance the balloon payment three years from now (because it would be considered a used vehicle).

In my home State of NJ, the MMe Premium AWD/ER is cheaper to finance outright than the Model Y LR AWD. But the Ford Options is notably more expensive than the Model Y lease.
 

·
Registered
Reserved First Edition Rapid Red Metallic
Joined
·
720 Posts
Leasing vs buying, there are pros and cons to both. Then, there are variables unique to each individual. As with any purchase, thorough research is always recommended.

For this thread, one advantage Tesla has right now is a lease on the Model Y at a low price and assuming the loss (being they are not allowing a purchase option). Despite Tesla saying this will be their automated fleet, I can only surmise this is to keep delivery numbers high. I say this because the whole idea is to have customer-owned vehicles used for the shared fleet, why assume a fleet of vehicles and the costs associated if you don’t have to? No matter the reason, it makes the Model Y attainable to more consumers today.
Another variable that is totally unknown: By not permitting the option to buy at the end of the lease, Tesla hopes that the owners will then buy another Tesla. But if the "shared fleet" does not materialize, I personally think that a shared fleet in 2 to 3 years with autonomous driving is nothing more than a Musk fantasy, Tesla may not want to take back all of those Model 3's and Y's. So the lessee at the end of the lease may be able to negotiate an advantageous buy back price.

Ford with the MMe, on the other hand, is at a disadvantage here, because they cannot assume the loss, promises were made to the shareholders regarding profit in the first year. So, even if a lease is offered, it will not be as low as the Model Y. .
It is one thing to declare at the outset that every MME will be sold at a profit and another to pull that off. Very, very few new models initially cover their development costs. Usually those costs are not recovered until the 2nd and 3rd year of production. That is why the auto cycle is 4 to 6 years to cover the cost of tooling. Demand will determine the price - not whether Ford is going to make a profit on the MME.

Ford created their Options plan, which falls short of being comparable to a lease. If you are planning to keep the MMe, The Ford Options plan is actually way more expensive than just financing outright from the start. First, because the initial APR is higher. Secondly, you will most likely not get the low introductory APRs when you go to refinance the balloon payment three years from now (because it would be considered a used vehicle).

In my home State of NJ, the MMe Premium AWD/ER is cheaper to finance outright than the Model Y LR AWD. But the Ford Options is notably more expensive than the Model Y lease.
You are absolutely correct. As per all the prior posts the Ford Option Plan is nothing more than a deferred payment plan. When that balloon comes due, who is going to finance that amount? It is the same as getting financing on a used car. Financing a used car is not through the auto manufacturer. It is not the type of financing that banks and credit unions want - they prefer new cars. So what is left are secondary and tertiary lenders aka predatory lenders.

Personally, I have never financed a car. Prior to leasing, I always paid cash for my cars. For those who are unable to pay cash, and without a true lease, I sincerely hope they read these posts and take your advice to finance their MME through either Ford or their credit union and/or bank but not take the Ford Option Plan.

Just my $.02.

.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
1,219 Posts
It is one thing to declare at the outset that every MME will be sold at a profit and another to pull that off. Very, very few new models initially cover their development costs. Usually those costs are not recovered until the 2nd and 3rd year of production. That is why the auto cycle is 4 to 6 years to cover the cost of tooling. Demand will determine the price - not whether Ford is going to make a profit on the MME.
I have no clue what they need to recoup, but it may be possible.

With the original target of 50,000 at an average selling price of $55,000 (my estimate), that’s $2.75B gross sales. Being they used an already updated factory (way less re-tooling), Ford may be able to cover the initial dev costs, we shall see.

The rumors are they exceeded their expected target (by how many? a most closely guarded secret). The recent price cut equates to approximately an additional 2500 units that need to be sold to make the original gross sales target. I have a feeling they greatly surpassed that, and I’m not counting the expected GT sales.

This is just my SWAG. I am hoping the MMe will be a surprise success story.
 
81 - 100 of 154 Posts
Top