[Iago]

Throwing the $7,500 into the depreciation column is ridiculous. I used MSRP for fair comparison of my Q5, I actually paid $47,000 for that $50,000 car.

I disagree with you. What matters not is the MSRP, but the true cost of the car. A potential buyer of a used car knows that the original owner paid $11K less than MSRP (in CA, due to FTC and rebates), so the buyer will use what he knows the owner paid to help determine the car's current value. MSRP is irrelevant if it is not attached to the reality of price paid.

 

[patmurphey]

I'm having a hard time understanding the negativity on the used car value of the Mach E. I truly believe the negative souls here with be proved wrong, dramatically.

 

[JTK44]

I'm having a hard time understanding the negativity on the used car value of the Mach E. I truly believe the negative souls here with be proved wrong, dramatically.

What is hard to understand? Other than Tesla the bottom has dropped out of not a few but every EV and if you go to Cars.com as opposed to the Tesla web site, you will tremendous depreciation for Teslasas well.

Is there is documentation that you have that shows differently please let the rest of see it!

 

[patmurphey]

My 2017 and 2018 Model 3 numbers cane from Car gurus, Edmunds, a site that listed multiple sources and a survey of used car listings in my region. I guess you could take a few thousand off for wholesale trade in, rather than private sale. My Audi Q5 sold to the dealer for $35,000 was advertised immediately for $35.800.

 

[JTK44]

My 2017 and 2018 Model 3 numbers cane from Car gurus, Edmunds, a site that listed multiple sources and a survey of used car listings in my region. I guess you could take a few thousand off for wholesale trade in, rather than private sale. My Audi Q5 sold to the dealer for $35,000 was advertised immediately for $35.800.

For your own benefit you should check sites where cars are actually for sale.

Have you seen cars for sale on Edmunds?

 

[MachDrive]

For your own benefit you should check sites where cars are actually for sale.

Have you seen cars for sale on Edmunds?

Edmunds lists cars for sale for many years now, from many sources.

All you have to do is click ‘used’ from the top menu, select your criteria and you will see the listings.

They also have their reviews and analysis of sale prices so you can tell the high offers from the deals.

 

[JTK44]

Edmunds lists cars for sale for many years now, from many sources.

All you have to do is click ‘used’ from the top menu, select your criteria and you will see the listings.

They also have their reviews and analysis of sale prices so you can tell the high offers from the deals.

Precisely!

As I posted you can not buy from Edmunds.

You can buy from Cars.com and if you go there you will see many Model 3’s for sale. You can also see recent sales. Non are at 90% of MSRP or even close!

None of this affects me as I will only lease. But those who buy may be severely disappointed in a few years when they realize that their MME has retained only a fraction of its MSRP - what you have paid.

 

[machstang]

I disagree with you. What matters not is the MSRP, but the true cost of the car. A potential buyer of a used car knows that the original owner paid $11K less than MSRP (in CA, due to FTC and rebates), so the buyer will use what he knows the owner paid to help determine the car's current value. MSRP is irrelevant if it is not attached to the reality of price paid.

Hard to disagree with factoring in all true cost of ownership variables.
Where about are you in Canada and do you also get local EV tax credits for the Mach-E?

BTW, add yours to this thread on delivery day!

The Mach-E Owners Registry

Once you have taken delivery, please join us and enter the following information about your new Mach-E: Step 1: Complete Short Form Here Step 2: Confirm entry in this discussion thread, preferably with a photo of your new Mach-E! Step 3: View Results A few reasons to join the effort: The last...

www.macheclub.com

 

[patmurphey]

For your own benefit you should check sites where cars are actually for sale.

Have you seen cars for sale on Edmunds?

I don't get what you're driving at. I Googled "used Model 3s for sale" and reported what I found, capeesh. My point is that good EVs like the Model 3 and the Mach E will hold their value a great deal better than the pathetic Ford option residual. If anyone goes that route they should be prepared to buy the car at that price and resell or trade it. Simple, and my considered opinion...

I would also suspect that 3 or 4 years out from 2021 even Ford (unless they fail miserably) might be beyond the proposed new Federal tax credit, and used cars won't be competing against it.

 

[JTK44]

I don't get what you're driving at. I Googled "used Model 3s for sale" and reported what I found, capeesh. My point is that good EVs like the Model 3 and the Mach E will hold their value a great deal better than the pathetic Ford option residual. If anyone goes that route they should be prepared to buy the car at that price and resell or trade it. Simple, and my considered opinion...

This does not effect me as I will only lease, but to those of you who are buying, and if it were me, I would be concerned.

You keep referencing "values" of the Model 3 to make an argument that some EV's hold their value. I posted that no Tesla holds 90% of its value.

Here is the link to Cars.com where there are many 2018 and 2019 Model 3's for sale in the low $30's. This is asking price, so I assume that the sale price will be less. These are actual cars for sale - a far better and more accurate representation than Edmunds "estimate".

see: https://www.cars.com/for-sale/searc...ORT&sort=price-lowest&stkTypId=28881&zc=11050

I would also suspect that 3 or 4 years out from 2021 even Ford (unless they fail miserably) might be beyond the proposed new Federal tax credit, and used cars won't be competing against it.

I am confused: As of June 2020 Ford had only 76,000 Tax credit left. In all likelihood those remaining FTC will have been exhausted by early 2022 - well before the balloon on any option plan will come due.

see: Federal EV Tax Credit Phase Out Tracker By Automaker – EVAdoption

Once those tax credits are gone, Ford just like Tesla, will have to reduce their price to remain competitive. When Ford reduces the price of the MME by $7,500 that adversely effects the value of every used MME.

 

[patmurphey]

My posts were based on actual cars for sale...

Proposed NEW tax credit!

 

[Diogenes]

My posts were based on actual cars for sale...

Proposed NEW tax credit!

So if I take into account the proposed NEW tax credit for the MY Long Range for my case in NY:

$49,990 + $4,061.69 (8.125% sales tax) - $2,000 (NY) - $7,500 (Fed) = $44,551.69

For our Premium 4XE in Infinite Blue:

$55,351.00 (X-Plan pricing) + $4,497.27 (8.125% sales tax) - $2,600 (Ford incentives) - $2,000 (NY) - $7,500 (Fed) = $47,748.27

Tesla is ~$3,200 cheaper (~$2,800 if we didn't go for the premium paint color). Significant for many but for us... not enough to wait for the legislation to digest through congress... and my wife needs a car now (borrowing our snowbird in-law's 2nd car at the moment). Also my wife... were she to go for the MY, would have picked the blue paint and white interior ($2,000 more)... thank god she doesn't ay attention to wheels.

Tesla financing is 2.49% vs Ford Options 2.25%.

If the legislation becomes serious, I suspect it'll sway many reservation holders which may result in Ford taking additional pricing action... but I think their margins are very slim here. What I can see them doing is shifting more shipments to Canada and Europe (after we get ours, we wouldn't mind at all with MMEs becoming scarce in the US 😁😁😁).

I didn't make my son take loans out for college betting the new administration to legislate discharging them. I do know people who did.

 

[JTK44]

So if I take into account the proposed NEW tax credit for the MY Long Range for my case in NY:

$49,990 + $4,061.69 (8.125% sales tax) - $2,000 (NY) - $7,500 (Fed) = $44,551.69

For our Premium 4XE in Infinite Blue:

$55,351.00 (X-Plan pricing) + $4,497.27 (8.125% sales tax) - $2,600 (Ford incentives) - $2,000 (NY) - $7,500 (Fed) = $47,748.27

Tesla is ~$3,200 cheaper (~$2,800 if we didn't go for the premium paint color). Significant for many but for us... not enough to wait for the legislation to digest through congress... and my wife needs a car now (borrowing our snowbird in-law's 2nd car at the moment). Also my wife... were she to go for the MY, would have picked the blue paint and white interior ($2,000 more)... thank god she doesn't ay attention to wheels.

Tesla financing is 2.49% vs Ford Options 2.25%.

If the legislation becomes serious, I suspect it'll sway many reservation holders which may result in Ford taking additional pricing action... but I think their margins are very slim here.

I didn't make my son take loans out for college betting the new administration to legislate discharging them. I do know people who did.

Your numbers are correct.

But there is one thing Tesla has going for it: you can lease a Tesla and cannot a MME!

I am totally not interested in buying either a Tesla or a MME: nothing in the MME is compelling enough for me to experience a potential loss of value of $30,000 in three years.

The failure of Ford not having a competitive lease is a 100% complete deal breaker for me.

 

[Diogenes]

Your numbers are correct.

But there is one thing Tesla has going for it: you can lease a Tesla and cannot a MME!

I am totally not interested in buying either a Tesla or a MME: nothing in the MME is compelling enough for me to experience a potential loss of value of $30,000 in three years.

The failure of Ford not having a competitive lease is a 100% complete deal breaker for me.

They may have "failed" people like you looking for a competitive lease. Personally, if any company doesn't want to sell or lease me a product at what I consider to be a compelling, competitive price, I move on. They've failed me... but I wouldn't categorically say that they've failed.
That said, it's a bit premature to determine whether they've failed or not. If at the end of the year there are a dozen MMEs sitting in many dealer lots, deeply discounted, then we can probably say that they've failed.
Check out the average days on the lot for the industry (below). Right now, the average days on the lot for the MME is 4 days. Still early and this is going to increase but they've got a long ways to go before they've got to take any action.
Net... so long as they're converting orders to sales and selling the orders not converting to sales to walk-ins, I would not expect Ford to offer a lease deal that's attractive to you. Like you say though... you do have other options.

The Fastest-Selling New and Used Cars in January - iSeeCars.com

What were the fastest-selling new and used vehicles for January...

www.iseecars.com

.

 

[JTK44]

They may have "failed" people like you looking for a competitive lease. Personally, if any company doesn't want to sell or lease me a product at what I consider to be a compelling, competitive price, I move on. They've failed me... but I wouldn't categorically say that they've failed.
That said, it's a bit premature to determine whether they've failed or not. If at the end of the year there are a dozen MMEs sitting in many dealer lots, deeply discounted, then we can probably say that they've failed.
Check out the average days on the lot for the industry (below). Right now, the average days on the lot for the MME is 4 days. Still early and this is going to increase but they've got a long ways to go before they've got to take any action.
Net... so long as they're converting orders to sales and selling the orders not converting to sales to walk-ins, I would not expect Ford to offer a lease deal that's attractive to you. Like you say though... you do have other options.

The Fastest-Selling New and Used Cars in January - iSeeCars.com

What were the fastest-selling new and used vehicles for January...

www.iseecars.com

.

4 days on a lot is totally irrelevant: the size of the number of MME delivered is to small to make any meaningful estimates.

I believe most of the people on this forum are older and the Mustang name means something to them. I for one have memories of my first Mustang. I posted, if this car were named a Camaro built by GM I would not have any interest.

My son 42 and daughter 38, both gainfully employed with children: When you speak about EV's, Tesla comes to mind not Mustang. I think this is true for the majority of potential buyers of EV's.

When they go cross shopping for an EV they, and many more like them, will compare the lease on the Tesla MY with the option plan on the MME. Young people today are not "passionate" about cars the way older people are. They look at monthly payments.

Guess what they are going to get?

 

[Diogenes]

4 days on a lot is totally irrelevant: the size of the number of MME delivered is to small to make any meaningful estimates.

I believe most of the people on this forum are older and the Mustang name means something to them. I for one have memories of my first Mustang. I posted, if this car were named a Camaro built by GM I would not have any interest.

My son 42 and daughter 38, both gainfully employed with children: When you speak about EV's, Tesla comes to mind not Mustang. I think this is true for the majority of potential buyers of EV's.

When they go cross shopping for an EV they, and many more like them, will compare the lease on the Tesla MY with the option plan on the MME. Young people today are not "passionate" about cars the way older people are. They look at monthly payments.

Guess what they are going to get?

We will know soon enough... If/once they're not moving off the lot, you may get your competitive lease. Until then, Ford doesn't have to do anything. I don't expect MMEs to be sitting on dealer lots for long in 2021 but again, we'll know soon enough.

My guess is if US demand softens at all or if there's legislation that brings back the $7,500 incentive for Teala, Ford will shift shipments to Canada, UK, Europe...

 

[Thomas1920]

Your numbers are correct.

But there is one thing Tesla has going for it: you can lease a Tesla and cannot a MME!

I am totally not interested in buying either a Tesla or a MME: nothing in the MME is compelling enough for me to experience a potential loss of value of $30,000 in three years.

The failure of Ford not having a competitive lease is a 100% complete deal breaker for me.

Respectfully, I think you’re missing the fact that the MME is in the “introduction” phase of the product lifecycle. Early adopters will help fund future innovation and product growth. Although I disagree with you that the MME isn’t “compelling” I also appreciate that there is some risk in this purchase due to being an early adopter. The trade off for me is that I’m helping fund the transition to clean autos and I want to experience the MME’s innovation.

 

[MachDrive]

Tesla is ~$3,200 cheaper (~$2,800 if we didn't go for the premium paint color).

FYI - The Tesla Model Y would only get $7,000, not $7,500.

That said, not every ICE car that competes in their respective category costs the same.
That is when a shopper weighs the objective and subjective values of competing cars, to see if the benefits outweigh the price differences.

I have just a few weeks to decide the path I take. Still evaluating the best way to proceed.

 

[JTK44]

Respectfully, I think you’re missing the fact that the MME is in the “introduction” phase of the product lifecycle. Early adopters will help fund future innovation and product growth. Although I disagree with you that the MME isn’t “compelling” I also appreciate that there is some risk in this purchase due to being an early adopter. The trade off for me is that I’m helping fund the transition to clean autos and I want to experience the MME’s innovation.

Interesting: I was always taught that investors, not customers, bare the

"risk of future innovation and product growth"
​

and the profits that come from innovation and product growth.

On the Tesla board in discussions of FSD, and Musk demand for $10,000, the posters said that customers are now being asked to fund Tesla research, again without any potential for economic reward.

I have a large position in both Ford stock and bonds so I am happy that Ford has customers willing to fund their projects and letting the profits from those projects go to stock and bond holders.

 

[Thomas1920]

Interesting: I was always taught that investors, not customers, bare the

"risk of future innovation and product growth"
​

and the profits that come from innovation and product growth.

On the Tesla board in discussions of FSD, and Musk demand for $10,000, the posters said that customers are now being asked to fund Tesla research, again without any potential for economic reward.

I have a large position in both Ford stock and bonds so I am happy that Ford has customers willing to fund their projects and letting the profits from those projects go to stock and bond holders.

Maybe you’re being facetious, but clearly I’m not suggesting customers are investors in the literal sense. Those who bought the first iphone accepted some risk that the iphone would flop or not hold its value, but they believed in Apple and they wanted to take part in a new and innovative product. That’s my point.