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Does anyone know if the Mach E will come with a reversible heat pump for both heating and cooling?
 

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Does anyone know if the Mach E will come with a reversible heat pump for both heating and cooling?
The Mustang Mach-E is not fitted with a heat pump. Ford Engineers have said any benefits were negated by the added weight of the system.
 

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Added weight of the system?????

Tesla Model Y Heat Pump: Deep Dive and Closer Look


see: Tesla Model Y Heat Pump: Deep Dive and Closer Look

and


and

 

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Added weight of the system?????

Tesla Model Y Heat Pump: Deep Dive and Closer Look


see: Tesla Model Y Heat Pump: Deep Dive and Closer Look

and


and

The question was about the Mustang Mach-E, not the Tesla. And Hey, don’t shoot the messenger.

I will look for the interview, i think it was with Heiser. but it was a decision based on ‘weight and complexity’ if memory serves correctly.

After eight years of Tesla producing cars, the model Y is the first to have a heat pump. And apparently it is complex, Tesla had to design something called the octovalve for the Model Y, which dramatically reduced the weight of the heat pump system by integrating multiple systems, making it viable.

we don’t yet know how efficient it is, we will get the chance to see as the first winter for the Model Y is coming in a few months. I expect there still will be some range loss, but much less than without it.

I don’t fault Ford for not having a heat-pump at this time. They could continue to engineer in labs all of the tech to answer all of the shortcomings of BEVs. but then, they will never have BEVs on the road. Perhaps in a few years they will introduce heat pumps—or something else to address the issue.
 

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Well, Nissan leaf have that for some years, the electric Kona/Niro too. I wasn't expecting that to be rocket science. There is already an A/C in there anyway.
But I remember seeing that the temperature management of the battery will have a huge impact in the range in winter with cooling.
Will see which one is better
 

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From the article:

Heat pumps are already on the road in several electric vehicles, sometimes as standard equipment, sometimes as a higher-trim feature, and sometimes as part of a cold-weather package.

Notably, it appears in the Volkswagen e-Golf, Kia Soul EV, and was first adopted by the Nissan Leaf.

“A more efficient air-conditioning system is achieved through optimization of the heat exchanger design that implements low power consumption, along with heating and cooling according to set temperatures, and temperature control when switching between cooler and heater that optimally adjust the compressor rotation,” states Nissan in an article about their first heat pump design.

Volkswagen claims that e-Golfs equipped with the heat pump regain about 30% range in the right conditions – which is around 25-35 degrees Fahrenheit outside. If it gets much colder than that, the heat pump is less effective and the cars will use their resistive heaters instead.

German technology company MAHLE is working on its own heat pump to sell to automakers. It claims its technology can improve cold-weather cruising range by between 7 and 20 percent.

“In field tests with a compact electric car, MAHLE has demonstrated that its ITS reduces the loss of cruising range substantially, especially at cold ambient temperatures. The original vehicle used, equipped with conventional electric heating, started with a cruising range of 100 kilometers. When the vehicle was equipped with the ITS, the cruising range increased to 116 kilometers,” states MAHLE in a press release.

Heat pumps are actually one of those rare areas where Tesla has lagged behind the competition. All of their cars have relied solely on a traditional resistive heater – none have used a heat pump – until now. Model Y is the first of the bunch to come with one.
 

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Heat pumps only work well in moderate climates. They hardly work at all below about 20 deg F like in Minnesota winters. Then you have to have your backup resistive heaters to heat your interior. They give you a little advantage on a long trip if the design is to feed your heat pump with pre-warmed air that you somehow extract from the battery circuit. On short trips in cold weather they provide no advantage. I do recall Ron Heiser talking about the heat pump adding complexity.
 

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From various sources around the net, some best practices for BEV winter conditions:
  • Always have BEV connected to a level 2 EVSE when vehicle not in use (always plug in to wall charger when you get home). Not necessarily for charging all the time, but to keep the battery condition optimal.
  • preheat cabin before leaving. Again, while connected to level 2 EVSE.
  • use heated seats and steering wheel instead of raising cabin temperature too high.
  • try to keep battery mostly charged for your trips. Assume 20% charge is equivalent to empty in winter cold, and adjust your planning and charging accordingly.
  • Be aware batteries charge slower as they get colder. This will add tome to your charge stops.
I am sure there are more tips and tricks out there. And i’m sure these still apply if the car has a heat pump.
 

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In my experience heated seats and steering are a must-have for electric vehicles, because the legacy heating systems are terrible when they can't use an ICE for generating additional heat
 

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Ugh. I thought Ford knew that heat pumps have become a must-have technology for BEVS operating in non-extreme winters. All those videos of BEVs drifting in extreme winter conditions to show how cool they are....I don’t care they can drift on an ice lake, I care whether their 270 mile range has been decreased to 215 miles because they choose to heat the cabin.

I installed a ground source heat pump in my house in 2007 and it has saved me lots of energy. The only time it is insufficient is when it’s really cold outside (-5F or lower) for a sustained time, at which time I turn on the electric backup heaters which is like turning on hairdryers to heat your home - it works, but very expensive compared to just the geothermal heat pump.

Anyway, sad to see this lack of heat pump. If I still decide to purchase the Mach-E, I will now definitely will want to lease it. Who’s going to want to buy my vehicle 3, 5, or 7 years later when I want to upgrade to a BEV which has a heat pump?
 

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Ugh. I thought Ford knew that heat pumps have become a must-have technology for BEVS operating in non-extreme winters. All those videos of BEVs drifting in extreme winter conditions to show how cool they are....I don’t care they can drift on an ice lake, I care whether their 270 mile range has been decreased to 215 miles because they choose to heat the cabin.

I installed a ground source heat pump in my house in 2007 and it has saved me lots of energy. The only time it is insufficient is when it’s really cold outside (-5F or lower) for a sustained time, at which time I turn on the electric backup heaters which is like turning on hairdryers to heat your home - it works, but very expensive compared to just the geothermal heat pump.

Anyway, sad to see this lack of heat pump. If I still decide to purchase the Mach-E, I will now definitely will want to lease it. Who’s going to want to buy my vehicle 3, 5, or 7 years later when I want to upgrade to a BEV which has a heat pump?
Yes, its seems the heat pump would be beneficial.

Ford said they chose to focus on EV system efficiency and performance instead for this release. The heat pump was one component sidelined. I am sure a solution is under development for future vehicles.

Please recall, the MMe went into development three years ago. The benchmark BEVs, the Teslas, hadn’t had heat pumps in their entire run. And they sold over a million without it.

Tesla did not put in a conventional heat-pump system in the model Y, they designed the integrated octovalve to reduce weight and complexity. As sophisticated as the octovalve is, it was not designed overnight.

So, does Ford delay another 1-2 years its first viable BEV in order to design an efficient heat pump system? By then, component ‘X’ comes along...another must-have. Another 1-2 years delay. Meanwhile, the world passes Ford by.

Ford had to release the MMe as designed, it was already one year behind an optimal release. Did Ford sacrifice some customers in extreme climates? Maybe. Time will tell.
 

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Tesla is a moving target.

For compelling reasons to consider BEV other than Tesla, those companies must "leap frog" Tesla.

If other BEV are 1 to 3 years behind Tesla, where does that leave you when you have to decide which BEV to buy?

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I installed a ground source heat pump in my house in 2007 and it has saved me lots of energy. The only time it is insufficient is when it’s really cold outside (-5F or lower) for a sustained time, at which time I turn on the electric backup heaters which is like turning on hairdryers to heat your home - it works, but very expensive compared to just the geothermal heat pump.
Anyway, sad to see this lack of heat pump. If I still decide to purchase the Mach-E, I will now definitely will want to lease it. Who’s going to want to buy my vehicle 3, 5, or 7 years later when I want to upgrade to a BEV which has a heat pump?
Yes, but your home system has a constant source of ground temperature fluid that is ~45-50 deg F (depends on where you live) for it's source of heat. Where is that constant source of heat for a Mach E? So only when the temperatures are moderate will the heat pump provide any benefit. I realize that a heat pump can provide more than one kw of heat for one kw of input, but only under moderate temperature conditions.
 

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While ford may have been caught a bit off guard here, I am sure that within a year or two the MME will include a heat pump as well.
 

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Yes, but your home system has a constant source of ground temperature fluid that is ~45-50 deg F (depends on where you live) for it's source of heat. Where is that constant source of heat for a Mach E? So only when the temperatures are moderate will the heat pump provide any benefit. I realize that a heat pump can provide more than one kw of heat for one kw of input, but only under moderate temperature conditions.
Yes, it's important to remember that part of the reason heat pumps or geothermal systems work well in homes is the availability of a constant temperature sources. Even more important is the high conductivity and specific heat of the ground used as that source. Low conductivity and specific heat are important reasons heat pumps don't rely on air for the heat exchange. A car would have to rely on air plus it add significant complexity and cost.
 

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Ok. So so no heat pump in MME ver 1.0. Does Ford say what the real range is in winters if one heats the cabin? Are we talking 5% range degradation or 30%? The temp where I live and many other states can dip below 0 Fahrenheit. I can’t just heat the seat and steering wheel. I will need to heat the cabin. My situation is likely fairly typical: in the morning, I can heat the cabin in my garage while plugged in, but after driving to work, the car will then just sit outside in a cold parking lot until evening, when I would then need to reheat the cabin while I drive back home. My commute is a little less than an hour each way. Range anxiety in summer not a problem, but in the winter??
 

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Ok. So so no heat pump in MME ver 1.0. Does Ford say what the real range is in winters if one heats the cabin? Are we talking 5% range degradation or 30%? The temp where I live and many other states can dip below 0 Fahrenheit. I can’t just heat the seat and steering wheel. I will need to heat the cabin. My situation is likely fairly typical: in the morning, I can heat the cabin in my garage while plugged in, but after driving to work, the car will then just sit outside in a cold parking lot until evening, when I would then need to reheat the cabin while I drive back home. My commute is a little less than an hour each way. Range anxiety in summer not a problem, but in the winter??
There are several reasons that range decreases in cold weather in EVs. Degraded battery performance and the requirement to use power to heat the cockpit/seats are two of them. But they may not be the biggest factors.

If you look at air density versus temperature, you see that the air is about 15-17% denser on a cold winter day than a hot summer day. So, at highway speeds, that dramatic increase in air density can reduce range easily 12% or more. But if you are driving slowly on a cold day, then the increase in air density is a much smaller factor.

I don't think that heating the seats and/or cabin makes as much difference as the reduced battery efficiency, but I can't really prove that... (Someone can, but not me.)

But there is no question that the much denser air on cold days at highways speeds is a big deal. In aviation, they measure that air density (using both the temperature and the elevation as variables), and call it "density altitude".

I think most people underestimate the magnitude of the effect of temperature (and elevation) on air density. (It's why Coors field in Denver on hot a day has much longer baseball flights: the air is a lot thinner, not just a little bit.)

fwiw.
 

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There are several reasons that range decreases in cold weather in EVs. Degraded battery performance and the requirement to use power to heat the cockpit/seats are two of them. But they may not be the biggest factors.

If you look at air density versus temperature, you see that the air is about 15-17% denser on a cold winter day than a hot summer day. So, at highway speeds, that dramatic increase in air density can reduce range easily 12% or more. But if you are driving slowly on a cold day, then the increase in air density is a much smaller factor.

I don't think that heating the seats and/or cabin makes as much difference as the reduced battery efficiency, but I can't really prove that... (Someone can, but not me.)

But there is no question that the much denser air on cold days at highways speeds is a big deal. In aviation, they measure that air density (using both the temperature and the elevation as variables), and call it "density altitude".

I think most people underestimate the magnitude of the effect of temperature (and elevation) on air density. (It's why Coors field in Denver on hot a day has much longer baseball flights: the air is a lot thinner, not just a little bit.)

fwiw.
I am sure you are right to a point:

When I drive north to Vermont in the winter in my ICE, my mileage is within 1 to 2 mpg (2% to 5% not 12%) less as compared to the spring.

I have played golf at altitudes: even when it is cool the ball travels much further than at sea level when it is hot. Altitude not temperature has the greater effect - same as baseball at Coors field: More home runs in the spring when it is cool/cold than when it is warm at sea level.


When you watch NFL games at Denver, even when it is cold, as compared to sea level where it is warmer, punts go further.

From everything I have read the primary reasons for reduced range in EV's in the cold are:

  • Batteries are less efficient when they are cold
  • You are draining the batteries to keep the cockpit warm
When you go to a Tesla store they have a large smart board: The range starts at 70 degrees at 55 mph. As you go faster the range decreases which is to be expected. As the temperature drops the range decreases. At 10 degrees, compared to 70 degrees there is an anticipated loss of range of 35%. At 70 mph another 10% to 15% loss or range.

The Model Y with a "projected range" of 316 miles, goes to below 200 miles at 10 degrees and 70 mph.

see: Buying an Electric Car for a Cold Climate? Double Down on Range.

Hope this helps.

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I am sure you are right to a point:

When I drive north to Vermont in the winter in my ICE, my mileage is within 1 to 2 mpg (2% to 5% not 12%) less as compared to the spring.

I have played golf at altitudes: even when it is cool the ball travels much further than at sea level when it is hot. Altitude not temperature has the greater effect - same as baseball at Coors field: More home runs in the spring when it is cool/cold than when it is warm at sea level.


When you watch NFL games at Denver, even when it is cold, as compared to sea level where it is warmer, punts go further.

From everything I have read the primary reasons for reduced range in EV's in the cold are:

  • Batteries are less efficient when they are cold
  • You are draining the batteries to keep the cockpit warm
When you go to a Tesla store they have a large smart board: The range starts at 70 degrees at 55 mph. As you go faster the range decreases which is to be expected. As the temperature drops the range decreases. At 10 degrees, compared to 70 degrees there is an anticipated loss of range of 35%. At 70 mph another 10% to 15% loss or range.

The Model Y with a "projected range" of 316 miles, goes to below 200 miles at 10 degrees and 70 mph.

see: Buying an Electric Car for a Cold Climate? Double Down on Range.

Hope this helps.

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Excellent Consumer Reports article. When I tried to explain to my wife about the range-loss as justification for the ER battery, I used a more complex find from the internet that included physics equations. That got me the sideways stare-of-death. When I tried to simplify it, apparently I was ‘mansplaining’. This article will be very helpful.

To put her view on automobiles in perspective, she is looking at getting the new 2-door Bronco with the manual transmission. She said since I’m getting the efficient vehicle, she would leave the commuting to me (that’s the extent of her justification. I feign protest, but I like the new Bronco too).

Hey, you know what they say, “Happy wife, happy life.”
 
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