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Discussion Starter #41
Isn't the C-Max a hybrid, with just a small electric motor and small battery that the gas engine helps out when it needs power? And is a smaller/lighter vehicle than the Mach-e will be?

Really can't compare those. Need to compare to other true BEVs that are fully powered by the electric motor(s) and batteries. That means much heavier motor(s) and batteries. Especially for a higher performance vehicle like the Mach-e.

Hard to match Tesla's performance yet because they have superior energy density in their proprietary batteries. I think they're the only ones reaching up into the 4's on miles/kWh for overall average (not just peak, but overall). A few other non-Teslas are right about 4, but with smaller (lighter) battery packs and less performance. I'm expecting the Mach-e to average in the high 3's, with the low 3's at highway speeds (which is where range actually matters).
 

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Isn't the C-Max a hybrid, with just a small electric motor and small battery that the gas engine helps out when it needs power? And is a smaller/lighter vehicle than the Mach-e will be?

Really can't compare those. Need to compare to other true BEVs that are fully powered by the electric motor(s) and batteries. That means much heavier motor(s) and batteries. Especially for a higher performance vehicle like the Mach-e.

Hard to match Tesla's performance yet because they have superior energy density in their proprietary batteries. I think they're the only ones reaching up into the 4's on miles/kWh for overall average (not just peak, but overall). A few other non-Teslas are right about 4, but with smaller (lighter) battery packs and less performance. I'm expecting the Mach-e to average in the high 3's, with the low 3's at highway speeds (which is where range actually matters).
with 28 miles on the battery, it is probably a c max energi, the plug in version.....I regularly get the same as shown in the photo.....the c max energi has, from day 1 surpassed ford's numbers.....I remember when i first got the car and ford said 7 hours to charge fully....it has never taken even 5 hours using a 110 line....
 

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Discussion Starter #43 (Edited)
But the Energi plug-in is still a hybrid, isn't it? With smaller battery (weight) and assistance from the gas motor when power is needed? And also a smaller, lighter weight vehicle in general?

I sure hope the numbers for the Mach-e are better than Ford is advertising, but using other pure BEVs (without superior Tesla batteries) as a reference, I'm not seeing much evidence that they will be. Especially for what's supposed to be a little bigger, higher performance vehicle. I think comparing to a hybrid is too much apples-to-oranges.

Also, when it comes to range, for most of us all that really matters is range at highway speed. Even the lowest 210 mile version is more than plenty for around-home driving (recharging at home every night). Doesn't really matter what the mileage is around town (unless you're one of those rare people that drives 200+ miles around town in a day). It's highway speeds that matter for range (trips away from home requiring public fast-chargers). And based on other BEVs, I think we'll be lucky to get 3.4 at 75 MPH.
 

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I drive a Bolt EV. EPA rating 3.57 miles per KWh (28 KWh per 100 miles). It really is dependent on how you drive compared to the EPA test cycle.

My actual experience:
Sep: 24 KWh per 100 miles so 4.17 Mi/KWh (running A/C)
Oct: 20 KWh per 100 miles so 5 Mi/KWh
Nov: 19 KWh per 100 miles so 5.26 Mi/KWh
Dec: 23 KWh per 100 miles so 4.35 Mi/KWh (running some cabin heat, frequent heated steering wheel and seats)

321
 

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Discussion Starter #45
I drive a Bolt EV. EPA rating 4 miles per KWh (25 KWh per 100 miles). It really is dependent on how you drive compared to the EPA test cycle.

Sep 24 KWh per 100 miles (running A/C) so 4.17 Mi/KWh
Oct: 20 KWh per 100 miles so 5 Mi/KWh
Nov: 19 KWh per 100 miles so 5.26 Mi/KWh
Dec: 23 KWh per 100 miles (running some cabin heat, frequent heated steering wheel and seats) so 4.35 Mi/KWh
How much high speed (~75 MPH) highway driving is in those stats? YouTube videos I've watched of the Bolt at 75 MPH show it falling precipitously to 3.2 or 3.3.


I'm sure mileage is far better at lower speeds and around town (well over 4 in favorable conditions). But again, what it is around town doesn't make much difference (from a range standpoint) if returning home to charge overnight. It's traveling over 200 miles (and especially 400, 600, 800) and needing public charging stations where range really matters. And that's typically going to be high speed highway driving.
 

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I go a few minutes of 65-75 MPH on my commute, but most of the drive is 65 MPH or below... traffic.
 

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Discussion Starter #47
I go a few minutes of 65-75 MPH on my commute, but most of the drive is 65 MPH or below... traffic.
Thanks. That helps explain why it isn't dropping as much.

The EPA highway numbers are problematic too, because those only test an average of about 55 MPH. There's usually a huge difference in BEV efficiency between 55 MPH and 75 MPH. Even between 65 and 75.

Some people taking long road trips away from home (which is where range really matters) may be on roads that top out at 55 or 65, but I expect most are doing them on interstates that have 75 MPH speed limits. In my part of the country they're 75-80. And unfortunately, that's where range actually matters. A 3.2 number at 75 means an effective range (with the ER battery) of maybe 200 (on the initial 100% overnight refuel), then maybe 160 miles on each 80% charge thereafter. For something like a 600 mile drive, that's just too much time wasted recharging. Basically for any road trip over a couple hundred miles, the BEV would probably stay home and the ICE would be used. The BEV will be the "home" car.
 

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But the Energi plug-in is still a hybrid, isn't it? With smaller battery (weight) and assistance from the gas motor when power is needed? And also a smaller, lighter weight vehicle in general?

I sure hope the numbers for the Mach-e are better than Ford is advertising, but using other pure BEVs (without superior Tesla batteries) as a reference, I'm not seeing much evidence that they will be. Especially for what's supposed to be a little bigger, higher performance vehicle. I think comparing to a hybrid is too much apples-to-oranges.

Also, when it comes to range, for most of us all that really matters is range at highway speed. Even the lowest 210 mile version is more than plenty for around-home driving (recharging at home every night). Doesn't really matter what the mileage is around town (unless you're one of those rare people that drives 200+ miles around town in a day). It's highway speeds that matter for range (trips away from home requiring public fast-chargers). And based on other BEVs, I think we'll be lucky to get 3.4 at 75 MPH.
the photo from the 2017 Cmax Engeri was taken after 28 miles of full electric drive-no gas/fuel. The Cmax can be driven in different modes including EV only, EV auto (computer controls amount of elelctric drive and when the HVB pack SOC drops to 15% it runs in hybrid mode only) and EV later in which the computer controls the SOC range to a narrow range to allow EV usage for as long as the vehicle is running. The CMax weight is just over 3900 lbs. It has a 7.0 kWh HVB.
 

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Thanks. That helps explain why it isn't dropping as much.

The EPA highway numbers are problematic too, because those only test an average of about 55 MPH. There's usually a huge difference in BEV efficiency between 55 MPH and 75 MPH. Even between 65 and 75.

Some people taking long road trips away from home (which is where range really matters) may be on roads that top out at 55 or 65, but I expect most are doing them on interstates that have 75 MPH speed limits. In my part of the country they're 75-80. And unfortunately, that's where range actually matters. A 3.2 number at 75 means an effective range (with the ER battery) of maybe 200 (on the initial 100% overnight refuel), then maybe 160 miles on each 80% charge thereafter. For something like a 600 mile drive, that's just too much time wasted recharging. Basically for any road trip over a couple hundred miles, the BEV would probably stay home and the ICE would be used. The BEV will be the "home" car.
The recharging time is a big area of improvement that Ford can make before the release. We're looking at 45 minutes to go from 10% -> 80% and a mere 47mi in 10 minutes at 150kW compared to Tesla's 168 miles in 15 minutes on v3 supercharger.

If Ford could increase the wattage to say 175 or 200kW, that would be helpful.
 

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Discussion Starter #50
The recharging time is a big area of improvement that Ford can make before the release. We're looking at 45 minutes to go from 10% -> 80% and a mere 47mi in 10 minutes at 150kW compared to Tesla's 168 miles in 15 minutes on v3 supercharger.

If Ford could increase the wattage to say 175 or 200kW, that would be helpful.
I wonder if that's Ford, or LG Chem though? I'm guessing it's probably a limitation of the batteries rather than the Ford software. That's where Tesla continues to have an advantage (their actual batteries are better).
 

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The recharging time is a big area of improvement that Ford can make before the release. We're looking at 45 minutes to go from 10% -> 80% and a mere 47mi in 10 minutes at 150kW compared to Tesla's 168 miles in 15 minutes on v3 supercharger.

If Ford could increase the wattage to say 175 or 200kW, that would be helpful.
But...most Tesla superchargers are still V2 and top out at 120KW
 

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Account for a 30% range cut from winter. Cut another 20% for the top and bottom ends of the battery that are not supposed to be regularly used. Then cut some more for over 60mph and spirited driving. I have 310 mile range Model 3 and have been pissed twice so far this winter.
Can you elaborate on "pissed"? Were you stranded on the road, or just had a lesser charge at the end of the day than you anticipated? I have a 100 mile a day commute, with a roughly 50-50 mix of highway and rural roads. I was anticipating that the standard range RWD's 230 mile range would be sufficient for winter driving given a 40% reduction in efficiency in the winter combined with half an hour each way at 70MPH on the highway and the expected drop in battery efficiency after 3-5 years. Am I on safe in that assumption, or am I likely to get stranded at times?
 

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Can you elaborate on "pissed"? Were you stranded on the road, or just had a lesser charge at the end of the day than you anticipated? I have a 100 mile a day commute, with a roughly 50-50 mix of highway and rural roads. I was anticipating that the standard range RWD's 230 mile range would be sufficient for winter driving given a 40% reduction in efficiency in the winter combined with half an hour each way at 70MPH on the highway and the expected drop in battery efficiency after 3-5 years. Am I on safe in that assumption, or am I likely to get stranded at times?
I wasn't stranded. I was driving around on a Saturday and decided I could not get to my last few impromptu errands/events and make it back home. So, I went back home to charge and head back out. I was only "pissed" because full-time care-free driving is gone. Planning driving trips and routines are not that difficult but life is care-free at times; and stopping for a charge is a fun killer. Time spent plugging in at home during the winter really adds up too. As much as love EVs like the Model 3 and Mach-E, this might be my 1 and only EV, if range isn't dramatically increased. I will also disclose I'm single with only 1 car in the home and I don't put as many miles on a vehicle as most people.
In your situation, I may look at your range as follows: 230 mile battery pack charged to 90% (because full charging my be bad on the battery and regen will be limited and limit 1 pedal driving) gets 207 miles. 207 miles times 60% gets 124 miles. So your 100 mile commute will be covered. Is that 24 mile buffer sufficient, especially considering future batter degradation (which is few percentage points in the Tesla community)? For me, that would not be.
 

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Discussion Starter #54
I wasn't stranded. I was driving around on a Saturday and decided I could not get to my last few impromptu errands/events and make it back home. So, I went back home to charge and head back out. I was only "pissed" because full-time care-free driving is gone. Planning driving trips and routines are not that difficult but life is care-free at times; and stopping for a charge is a fun killer. Time spent plugging in at home during the winter really adds up too. As much as love EVs like the Model 3 and Mach-E, this might be my 1 and only EV, if range isn't dramatically increased. I will also disclose I'm single with only 1 car in the home and I don't put as many miles on a vehicle as most people.
In your situation, I may look at your range as follows: 230 mile battery pack charged to 90% (because full charging my be bad on the battery and regen will be limited and limit 1 pedal driving) gets 207 miles. 207 miles times 60% gets 124 miles. So your 100 mile commute will be covered. Is that 24 mile buffer sufficient, especially considering future batter degradation (which is few percentage points in the Tesla community)? For me, that would not be.
And don't forget to factor in speed. Advertised range numbers are probably in the ballpark if you're staying under 55 MPH. But if many of those miles are above 55, the miles/kWh rate starts to plummet on pretty much all BEVs. At 65 MPH, expect maybe a 10-15% drop in range. At 75 MPH, expect maybe a 25-30% drop in range. Which, ironically, is where we actually NEED the range (if you're driving hundreds of miles in a day, it's almost surely on the highway).

I agree with your general sentiment about BEV driving restricting a lot of the normal freedom of driving if you drive very far. Charging stops take so long and range between charges (at highway speeds) is fairly short. For me, it'll be the one of two vehicle in my garage so I'll be using it for around-home driving only. For any drive that might go over 100 miles, I'll take the ICE vehicle. But for my normal daily driving (well under 100 miles/day), it'll be a perfect fit. And that's the vast majority of my driving.

If it were going to be the only vehicle in my household, I'd be much more reluctant to get a BEV. I'd probably look more at ICE or PHEV.
 

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And don't forget to factor in speed. Advertised range numbers are probably in the ballpark if you're staying under 55 MPH. But if many of those miles are above 55, the miles/kWh rate starts to plummet on pretty much all BEVs. At 65 MPH, expect maybe a 10-15% drop in range. At 75 MPH, expect maybe a 25-30% drop in range. Which, ironically, is where we actually NEED the range (if you're driving hundreds of miles in a day, it's almost surely on the highway).
Exactly. I can confirm even going over 55 mph plummets the range; and, the decrease in range from high speeds is not linear.

If it were going to be the only vehicle in my household, I'd be much more reluctant to get a BEV. I'd probably look more at ICE or PHEV.
[/QUOTE]
That is what I should have considered and is now my current thinking. Oh well. lol
 

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I drive a 2015 Leaf now, that has a 150mi range (120 on the highway or with the heater running) and I really need more than that to not worry about running out during my daily driving.

I don't usually drive more than 100 miles a day, but 80-90 is not uncommon, and when you get down to less than 20 miles of battery left, it can get a bit tense.

I've never been stranded, but I've limped to a charger a time or 2.

And unless there is a level 2 or better charger at your travel destination, forget going on a long trip with a BEV, IMHO.

I would rent a ICE car just for that. And if it is more than 300 miles, I would want to fly. 5-6 hrs behind the wheel isn't fun for me.
 

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Leaf battery does not have liquid cooling, so probably expect battery degradation to happen and cut your range down to under 100 miles in 5 years. Time for a real EV. :)
 

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I would rent a ICE car just for that. And if it is more than 300 miles, I would want to fly. 5-6 hrs behind the wheel isn't fun for me.
I hear ya- I hate to drive more than a couple of hours myself. Unfortunately the wife developed claustrophobia and is afraid to fly, so we now take the train or cruise from a nearby port for our vacations. Being able to put a semi-autonomous vehicle like the mach-e on autopilot would be a godsend for expanding our travel, but only if the charging infrastructure along the way is reliable.
 

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From what I’ve read, Ford OTA updates will not access the drivetrain therefore there won’t be efficiency and power improvements unlike Tesla. Did I get that right.
 
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