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Is the Extended-Range Battery worth it?

39K views 112 replies 37 participants last post by  Get Energi 
#1 ·
I went into this just assuming I wanted to get the ER battery (even though it's quite pricey at +$5000). Who wouldn't want as much range as possible, right? Just in case.

But the more I think this through, I'm questioning that. First lets get this out of the way... If one isn't in the right situation to do 99% of their charging at a secure, dedicated, guaranteed location (typically at home overnight in the garage), one probably shouldn't even be considering a BEV. BEVs are clearly a bad fit for lots of long-distance driving that requires public charging stations.

But on the other hand, we're plunking down 60 grand for a very cool car with all the latest bells and whistles, so it would sure be nice to be able to use it in on the occasional long drive. But how practical is that really? And is it really worth $5000 for that?

Depends on your regular driving patterns, of course. Let's assume you almost never drive more than 100 total miles/day. That's comfortably within the window of range for the base battery even on a bad weather day, and probably even if you forget to plug in one night (we know that'll happen sometime).

But what if you still wanna take a few long road trips each year (and you buy the extended battery for it)? Actual range on a 100% overnight charge might be 270 miles, but since you're limited by charging station locations that can be sparse, good chance you'll really have to settle for one within just 225 miles. 45 minute stop to fill maybe 200 miles (charging slows way down if you try to go all the way to 100%). Lather/rinse/repeat in 200 mile increments until you reach your destination. Your destination (hotel?) probably doesn't have overnight EV charging so you have a 45 minute charge there too. And repeat it all on the way back. Paying premium rates higher than gasoline.

And what about speed? Many interstates (especially in the West) have 75-80 MPH speed limits. I'm not gonna drive 65 in a 75 zone. Screw that. How much worse is energy-burn rate at 75 MPH though? 5%? 10%? 20%?

More and more it's seeming like long trips above maybe 200 miles, even with the bigger battery, are just too much time, hassle, and compromise. And if I'm just gonna drive an ICE vehicles for those instead, paying $5000 for the bigger battery is just a waste since regular range is still plenty around town.
 
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#2 ·
I hear you but we just don't know enough yet. The numbers Ford has published are estimates. Most EV's get around 4 miles per kWh, so the standard range Mustang should have a 300 mile range and the extended should be closer to 400 miles. And...they haven't published the charging curves yet. Tesla's charge pretty fast at their superchargers and people spend 10-20 minutes there, just enough time to stretch your legs, go to the bathroom, etc. Ford is taking aim at Tesla so my guess (hope) is that the Mustang will charge in a similar fashion. But yes, there are a few charging deserts for Tesla and EA, which Ford will be using. But for the most part there are ample chargers well located along major highways.

You are correct in that speed reduces range. I drive a Chevy Bolt and driving at 80 will reduce the EPA range about 25%, driving at 70 maybe 12% and zero loss for 60 mph. Below 60 the efficiency goes over the EPA rating. I've seen 6.0 miles per kWh when driving around 30-35 mph.
Cold weather also reduces range. I get a 33% reduction when it's 30-35 degrees outside. So combining cold weather and high speed is a range killer. But all EV's are that way, even Tesla.

You can look at abetterrouteplanner.com and plot a route for a long distance trip to see how many charging stops you'll have to make and how long at each. The you can compare that to an ICE car. We normally take a 600 mile trip in our ICE and it takes 10 hours, including stops. I planned the same route for a Tesla (hopefully similar to a Mustang) and it calculated 11 hours. It calculated 12 hours if we took our Bolt.

I'm going to wait for the real numbers for the Mustang to see if it's worth it, to me, to trade our Bolt. I'll be looking hard at real world range and charging rates, and the build out of the EA network. I sure would like to make that 600 mile trip and in not much more than 10 hours, like I do now.
 
#3 ·
Agreed that there's a lot of unknowns only based on estimates right now. The problem for those of us that placed a deposit in hopes of getting one of the first-year Mach-e's is that the timeframe suggests we'll be ordering in the Spring. Presumably before real-world reviewers get a change to test them out. So we need to gather the best estimates before then. Such is the life of wanting an early one, I suppose. I figure I'm only 60% about following through on my purchase vs just getting by deposit refunded, in large part for this very reason -- to many unknowns to not wait for real-world testing first.

The videos I've watched for some other BEVs were showing more like 3.5 miles/kWh highway. Maybe 4 is realistic, but OTOH the Mach-e looks a little bigger/heavier and more powerful than vehicles like the eNiro, Kona, or Bolt. I would guess (like an ICE vehicle) that means a little worse mileage rather than better. 400 miles of real-world range would really surprise me (although that would certainly be great).

From a practical standpoint, the energy-burn rate at 30-35 MPH really doesn't matter much. That's daily around-town driving where range is a non-issue because I can do all that in one overnight charge. Where range truly matters is at highway speeds and long drives. And that, unfortunately, is much worse. It really is a Catch-22 in that regard. Where we NEED the better mileage/range, we don't get it. And where we get it, we don't need it.
 
#4 ·
Oh, for the fun of it I checked out abetterrouteplanner for the route I'm most interested in (Denver-Las Vegas). Granted, it's a bigger challenge in the wide-open west where there's fewer charging stations. Still though, it wasn't encouraging. It does have the Mach-e in there, which is nice. In addition to showing an extra 1.3 hours of actual drive time, it adds 4 hours of charging time on 5 stops (normally there's just 2 quick gas stops). Effectively turns it into a 2-day trip instead of one. And $165 in charging costs.

None of that is a real surprise, of course, but it does reinforce my thoughts about probably just leaving the BEV at home and using the ICE car for such a trip. ?
 
#6 ·
I'll have to play with PlugShare some to figure out the options. But the big problem on that particular map is the 427 mile gap between Grand Junction and Mesquite (I-70 to I-15).

There are pay charging stations along the way, of course. Abetterrouteplanner mapped them out. The bigger issue is not so much the price, but rather the 4-5 extra hours for charging and all the extra stops. For it to take than much extra time, we'd drive the Escape instead.
 
#7 ·
There are more dead areas for the Non-Tesla BEV than Tesla owners experience. There is zero fast charging stations in the UP of Michigan. Fast charging stations in Northern Wisconsin (where I have a home) is zero also. One can find level 2 chargers but these will add like 22-32 miles per hour of charging. Not the best situation for longer distance travel in rural areas. As for miles per kWh, my PHEV CMax is obtaining over 4.5 during the warmer months.
 
#8 ·
FYI wherever there is a ford dealership there will be free charging. We dive an average of 2500 miles a month per car. Some of those drives are 200 miles round trip. I have priced it all out based on the numbers and the mustang will pay it self in just the gas savings. My bill now for two cars is about $800 a month. My 2018 cmax gets about 37 mpg. My 2017 fusion sport AWD. Gets 20 city and 25 hwy. charging at night at home means zero stops on the 270 battery and I am figuring about $9-12 dollars for 270 miles. No question it is cheaper. My buddy and I go on long hockey road trips every year. You would be surprised how many hotels have free charging. We have gone from Cali to Texas to 30 miles south of Wyoming through Utah and Nevada. Plus of course states in between. I just saw a MB plunged into a 110 at a double tree. In OKC they gave me an orange cord for my fusion energy at the time. As far as charging on the road I know we stop for a snack or meal etc. so we plan on stopping to charge and plan it that way. Today we drive and get gas when we have to buy then stop again to eat or to use the bathroom. With the mustang we will actually stop less and accomplish all at one time. You all are right in that we do not know the costs until we do it however there is no way EA is goi g to be more expensive then gas. I think it is a different shift of thinking. I look at like my phone. I have no idea how long it will last without charging. I just charge it when it makes sense like at night while I am sleeping or before I know I will be away from charging for a long period of time. You also have to count the maintenance on gas vehicles and duration. For example would you trust driving a gas car 1000 miles with 150,000 miles? An electric car is about longevity. Tesla and ford think batteries will go upwards of 250,000 or more. Tesla is saying 1 million. Electric cars are a completely different mind set then a gas car.
 
#9 ·
If you're putting a whopping 2500 miles a month (30k/yr) on a car, and under 200 miles/day (i.e. a single day charge), and have a dedicated overnight charging outlet, then you're certainly a prime candidate for a BEV. That scenario is slam-dunk. The more miles you drive, the better the payout on the fuel savings.

I'm in the opposite scenario. Retired and drive maybe 5000 miles a year. It actually makes little sense for me to get one as it will cost me more, but if I do get one of these it will really just be a splurge because it's a really cool car. But I know I'm not the prime candidate. People that drive a lot are.

Even though it will technically be possible for me to use this on long trips, I probably won't because it would commonly require a lot of extra time and compromise. That's why we'll still have our great little Ford Escape though. One BEV and one ICE vehicle in the household will be an ideal combo. Kinda the best of both worlds. All I really posted this thread for was to explore the various aspects affecting the value of getting the extended battery or not.
 
#11 ·
If you're putting a whopping 2500 miles a month (30k/yr) on a car, and under 200 miles/day (i.e. a single day charge), and have a dedicated overnight charging outlet, then you're certainly a prime candidate for a BEV. That scenario is slam-dunk. The more miles you drive, the better the payout on the fuel savings.

I'm in the opposite scenario. Retired and drive maybe 5000 miles a year. It actually makes little sense for me to get one as it will cost me more, but if I do get one of these it will really just be a splurge because it's a really cool car. But I know I'm not the prime candidate. People that drive a lot are.

Even though it will technically be possible for me to use this on long trips, I probably won't because it would commonly require a lot of extra time and compromise. That's why we'll still have our great little Ford Escape though. One BEV and one ICE vehicle in the household will be an ideal combo. Kinda the best of both worlds. All I really posted this thread for was to explore the various aspects affecting the value of getting the extended battery or not.
 
#15 ·
Yeah with each additional day of research I do I'm seeing that long highway trips should really be avoided in a BEV if at all possible. And we'll still have our Escape for that anyway. So I may just end up spec'ing this for around-home driving only and forget about using it for any long drives. The base battery is still plenty big enough for that (210 miles on AWD). I'm still deciding whether the extra $5000 is really worth it "just in case" for the very rare time we might end up unexpectedly driving more than 200 miles in a day. I know the logical answer to that, but that lingering "just in case" still nags at me. ?

Either way though, the plan is to never (or rarely ever) use public charging stations.
 
#16 ·
@dbsb3233, you and I posted this topic at almost the same time. My post is on the other Mach-E forum site.

I've really enjoyed reading your thoughts and others' on here. So far I'm on the same line of thought as you -- given my anticipated needs and driving patterns, the costs associated with the extended range battery option aren't worthwhile.
 
#18 ·
Thanks. I think it's good to share our thoughts on practical info like this, both for confirmation/correction where we might have something wrong, but also to help anyone else that might not have thought about such factors. When considering ordering a new model on a new platform like this, the more issues we can anticipate, the better.

I hate the thought of not feeling like I can use my 60 thousand dollar fancy new Mustang on a road trip, but I'd rather come to that realization BEFORE buying (so I can spec it accordingly) rather than being disappointed later.
 
#17 ·
Did some more research for realistic range at long-drive highway speeds. That's all I'm really concerned with, since around-home driving is a non-issue. I can easily fully recharge every night at home with Ford's included 22 miles/hr 220v charger, so the MPkWh for around-town driving is totally irrelevant from a range standpoint.

What matters from a range-standpoint is high speed highway range. Tom's comments above about MPkWh dropping precipitously at high speeds look spot-on. I watched one guy's video where he drove his Bolt at 75 MPH with the A/C on. He was showing 3.2 MPkWh during that. This site shows normal average for the Bolt of 3.97...



That represents a 20% drop in MPkWh from the normal average. I also came across this Tesla data table that broke out the range drop every 5 MPH between 55 and 80. It's quite the dramatic drop-off...


It varies, but in general it shows roughly a 12% loss at 70 MPH up to a 25% loss at 80 MPH. That's pretty consistent with the Bolt video above. Applying that to a Mach-e drive across Utah where the interstate speed limit is 80 could drop the AWD ERB range from 270 to 200. And more practically, maybe 150 on 80% charges and safety margins. That's just 2 hours. Then 40 minutes to recharge. Each segment.
 
#22 ·
Did some more research for realistic range at long-drive highway speeds. That's all I'm really concerned with, since around-home driving is a non-issue. I can easily fully recharge every night at home with Ford's included 22 miles/hr 220v charger, so the MPkWh for around-town driving is totally irrelevant from a range standpoint.

What matters from a range-standpoint is high speed highway range. Tom's comments above about MPkWh dropping precipitously at high speeds look spot-on. I watched one guy's video where he drove his Bolt at 75 MPH with the A/C on. He was showing 3.2 MPkWh during that. This site shows normal average for the Bolt of 3.97...

I regularly got 4.5 miles/kWh in my bolt driving at "legal" highway speed of 65. Around the rural roads here at 50-55mph I could edge up to about 4.7 miles/kWh. Another problem is that it is so damn hard not to love mashing the pedal down and feeling that torque right off the line instead of the delay for a ICE to get up in rpm.
 
#24 ·
That lack of delay is what I'm most looking forward to in driving an EV. That has always been an annoying byproduct of most ICE vehicles I've owned.

It is interesting how much the MPkWh seems to vary from driver to driver. The guy in the video noted that having the A/C on was probably responsible for 0.3 of that. But I wanted to include that because I know I'm not gonna compromise the way I'll use the vehicle just to try and eke out a little more range. I know for some EV enthusiasts that becomes almost a game. Which is fine if one is into that, but I know I would quickly tire of compromising, and just want the comfort and convenience and non-compromise that I expect in a $60,000 vehicle. ?
 
#26 ·
We obviously don't know the real world range yet but...

One other thing to consider is where you live. In really cold weather, my understanding is you can lose ~30% of your range. I'm not sure if that's just due to the battery being cold or because of the anticipated extra power for heating the cabin. That would put the RWD Premium range from 230 mi to 161 mi. I'm also assuming that the ranges they quote are for a 100% charged battery, I know the recommend keeping your battery less than 100% charged unless you really need that. In that case, if your battery was only 90% charged the standard range in the winter is down to 145 mi. You'd probably charge 100% if you are anticipating a long drive, but you never know.

The above is probably worst case, but I'm just trying to play devil's advocate, I am planning to keep mine for the long haul and will probably go for the long range for those reasons plus some anticipated battery degradation of a couple percent a year. I probably will only take it on 1-2 trips a year where I'll have to charge on the road, but an extra 70 miles of driving is basically an extra hour without having to stop to charge.
 
#29 ·
Yeah I keep coming back to that too. The "just in case" scenario. I'm coming to the conclusion that we'll just plan to drive an ICE vehicle on long trips. But I'm in the same boat as you... If I do buy this, it will be a "lifetime" car for me. Hope to get 20 years out of it. Only get the chance to spec it once, and 5 years down the road I don't want to regret not getting the bigger battery (even at a pricey $5000).

I also wonder if the batteries have the capability to be charged at higher than 150kW? Is that an artificial limit or a technical one where the batteries simply can't handle more (safely)? If these batteries could be "opened up" with a software update in couple of years to handle EA's 350hW charging (cutting charging time from 45 minutes to 15-20), that dramatically changes the parameters and makes the extended battery more useful for potential longer (or semi-long) drives.
 
#27 ·
I was in between the two until I tried few scenarios in abetterrouteplanner.com (that now includes Mach-E) to quickly come into the conclusion that ER is the way to go and even then I’m truly hoping Ford was conservative with the original specs. My real world use case: 90-10 actual battery usability, -10F, snow/wind, +10% speed limit -> 160miles real range with AWD, LR without stopping for charging.
 
#31 ·
Totally agree that if one expects to use it on long (public charging required) trips, the extended battery is a must. I've just been going back and forth trying to decide whether it's even worth trying very long trips at all, even with the ERB. And if the answer is No, I might not need the ERB at all.

I had spec'd my pre-order for RWD ERB, thinking that I wanted maximum range. But even at that, practical range at 75 MPH between recharge stops looks like 200 miles on the initial full home charge, and maybe 175 between public charges. Pretty sure I'd just drive an ICE vehicle (our 2nd car or a rental) instead of doing that. So now I'm gotta switch to the ADW (even though that drops range another 10%). Still muling over the ERB or not.
 
#28 ·
I've checked several owner's manuals (Model 3, Focus Electric, Ioniq EV, and Kona EV) for high voltage battery charge recommendations. None of them recommend against a 100% charge when using AC level 1 or 2 charging at home. In some cases for DC level 2 (aka DCFC, Supercharger, "level 3") they advise that charging automatically may slow down after 80% as part of the car's built in battery management system.

All I'm saying is that the engineers have built sophisticated battery management systems for electric vehicles. Apparently, part of their implementation is to not charge to 100% internally, even though externally they'll scale their actual min/max charge so that it displays in the range of 0 to 100 to the driver. So no need for us to stop charging before "full."
 
#34 ·
According to Ford's reservation page, the AWD standard range is rated for 255 hp, and the AWD extended range is rated for 332 hp. If correct, that's a 30% power increase for maybe a 10% weight increase. The RWD also shows a power increase between standard and extended range. Either the extended range comes with bigger motors or the larger battery can just feed more current to the motors. I don't plan to take the Mach-E on long trips so the range difference isn't that important to me, but the power difference should be noticeable at highway speeds. That's why I reserved the AWD extended range.
 
#35 ·
If the Mach-E is merely your city runabout car, stick with the standard range pack and get the AWD. You won't really notice the 20 mile reduction in range with AWD but you'll appreciate the power/torque over the RWD. If the Mach-E is your primary/only car then by all means get the bigger battery.

Software changes but hardware is forever.
 
#52 ·
Can you elaborate on "pissed"? Were you stranded on the road, or just had a lesser charge at the end of the day than you anticipated? I have a 100 mile a day commute, with a roughly 50-50 mix of highway and rural roads. I was anticipating that the standard range RWD's 230 mile range would be sufficient for winter driving given a 40% reduction in efficiency in the winter combined with half an hour each way at 70MPH on the highway and the expected drop in battery efficiency after 3-5 years. Am I on safe in that assumption, or am I likely to get stranded at times?
 
#41 ·
Isn't the C-Max a hybrid, with just a small electric motor and small battery that the gas engine helps out when it needs power? And is a smaller/lighter vehicle than the Mach-e will be?

Really can't compare those. Need to compare to other true BEVs that are fully powered by the electric motor(s) and batteries. That means much heavier motor(s) and batteries. Especially for a higher performance vehicle like the Mach-e.

Hard to match Tesla's performance yet because they have superior energy density in their proprietary batteries. I think they're the only ones reaching up into the 4's on miles/kWh for overall average (not just peak, but overall). A few other non-Teslas are right about 4, but with smaller (lighter) battery packs and less performance. I'm expecting the Mach-e to average in the high 3's, with the low 3's at highway speeds (which is where range actually matters).
 
#42 ·
Isn't the C-Max a hybrid, with just a small electric motor and small battery that the gas engine helps out when it needs power? And is a smaller/lighter vehicle than the Mach-e will be?

Really can't compare those. Need to compare to other true BEVs that are fully powered by the electric motor(s) and batteries. That means much heavier motor(s) and batteries. Especially for a higher performance vehicle like the Mach-e.

Hard to match Tesla's performance yet because they have superior energy density in their proprietary batteries. I think they're the only ones reaching up into the 4's on miles/kWh for overall average (not just peak, but overall). A few other non-Teslas are right about 4, but with smaller (lighter) battery packs and less performance. I'm expecting the Mach-e to average in the high 3's, with the low 3's at highway speeds (which is where range actually matters).
with 28 miles on the battery, it is probably a c max energi, the plug in version.....I regularly get the same as shown in the photo.....the c max energi has, from day 1 surpassed ford's numbers.....I remember when i first got the car and ford said 7 hours to charge fully....it has never taken even 5 hours using a 110 line....
 
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