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Next month I will own my MMe for two years and while I have owned some really nice 'rides' the MMe is a great vehicle that I love driving. OK now subjective things like 'looks' aside are the features offered by Ford on the MMe worth $10K more than the Model Y with comparable features?
 

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We own both: 2021 MME Premium and 2022 MYLR.
Apples and Oranges...each has its own assets and flaws.
Can't go wrong with either, unless you plan long-distance travel.

The Y has Tesla expedient warranty work available and the techs are reasonably skilled.

In metro Phoenix, the dealers are virtually clueless, and I am reluctant to have to leave the MME for a week or more while they figure out the persistent amber light on the charger since day 1, the missing OTA updates, the front-collision "alerts, etc.
 

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Next month I will own my MMe for two years and while I have owned some really nice 'rides' the MMe is a great vehicle that I love driving. OK now subjective things like 'looks' aside are the features offered by Ford on the MMe worth $10K more than the Model Y with comparable features?
So two years ago the MMe was cheaper than the MY, at least for me considering the $7,500 tax credit and the MCA discount. And there was no way that "looks" of the MY vs MME could be ignored.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
We own both: 2021 MME Premium and 2022 MYLR.
Apples and Oranges...each has its own assets and flaws.
Can't go wrong with either, unless you plan long-distance travel.

The Y has Tesla expedient warranty work available and the techs are reasonably skilled.

In metro Phoenix, the dealers are virtually clueless, and I am reluctant to have to leave the MME for a week or more while they figure out the persistent amber light on the charger since day 1, the missing OTA updates, the front-collision "alerts, etc.
I'm not certain how it's an "apples and oranges" issue? I understand that each vehicle has its pluses and minuses (there are Tesla's in my family) but are the differences e.g. warranty etc. worth the current price difference if one is in the market for a new EV?
 

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So two years ago the MMe was cheaper than the MY, at least for me considering the $7,500 tax credit and the MCA discount. And there was no way that "looks" of the MY vs MME could be ignored.
For me, looks aside, the issue that would keep me out of a Mod. Y is the lack of a "steering wheel" screen.
 

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Next month I will own my MMe for two years and while I have owned some really nice 'rides' the MMe is a great vehicle that I love driving. OK now subjective things like 'looks' aside are the features offered by Ford on the MMe worth $10K more than the Model Y with comparable features?
Point of information:

The Model Y MSRP is $52,990 less Federal Tax Credit of $7,500, to you the buyer $45,490 and delivery within 30 to 45 days or less.

A comparable to the Model Y is the Premium LR AWD, with a MSRP of $66,275 and delivery unknown.

My math calculates that the difference is $20,785 not $10,000.

So my answer would be "No the MachE is not worth $20,000 more than a Model Y"
 

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Point of information:

The Model Y MSRP is $52,990 less Federal Tax Credit of $7,500, to you the buyer $45,490 and delivery within 30 to 45 days or less.

A comparable to the Model Y is the Premium LR AWD, with a MSRP of $66,275 and delivery unknown.

My math calculates that the difference is $20,785 not $10,000.

So my answer would be "No the MachE is not worth $20,000 more than a Model Y"
It's a good question as I was considering the Y when wanting to purchase an EV. When I was ordering, the Y had its price raised several times and didn't have a potential rebate. I am not a big fan of the way the Y looks as it is too much like a less expensive 3. I also like the display behind the steering wheel and having a few well-place physical buttons. On the other hand, Tesla has been the tech leader, has it's own charging network, and better battery/range, more experience with the adaptive cruise control (for vehicles without "self-driving"), and other neat tech (like the security cameras etc.).
It would be a harder decision to make now, but at a $20K difference, I probably would have gone for the Y. But, I am still very happy with the MME GT that I have now.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
It's a good question as I was considering the Y when wanting to purchase an EV. When I was ordering, the Y had its price raised several times and didn't have a potential rebate. I am not a big fan of the way the Y looks as it is too much like a less expensive 3. I also like the display behind the steering wheel and having a few well-place physical buttons. On the other hand, Tesla has been the tech leader, has it's own charging network, and better battery/range, more experience with the adaptive cruise control (for vehicles without "self-driving"), and other neat tech (like the security cameras etc.).
It would be a harder decision to make now, but at a $20K difference, I probably would have gone for the Y. But, I am still very happy with the MME GT that I have now.
There's also the issue of the Tesla (NACS) vs. CCS/J1772 EA which is primarily what I use when I long distance travel. I can't speak to the other networks, but the EA network needs ALOT of work. One additional point is while Ford has thankfully 'tweaked' the charge curve on the MMe, in my opinion the rate of charge is still too slow. The MMe can accept 150kw charging I have yet to experience anything close to that except for about 30 secs. after plug-in. While range is an important consideration, for me charge curve is much more important. EDIT: Lastly the fact that if one utilizes Ford's Plug and Charge it results in a cost of .43 cents vs. 31 cents per kWh for the privilege of not having to open the EA App
 

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At $45k for a Tesla MY Long Range AWD with a 330 mile range, the superior Tesla Charging Network, OTA updates, skilled service centers it's a not even close. I have a Tesla Model 3 and Mustang Mach e.
Speaking of OTA updates, Ford's delivery of the most recent upgrades has been abysmal. I'm still on 3.6
 

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Lastly the fact that if one utilizes Ford's Plug and Charge it results in a cost of .43 cents vs. 31 cents per kWh for the privilege of not having to open the EA App
What? I have not charged outside my garage yet. So, the Ford P'n'C is 50% more expensive than using the app of EA or other charging companies?
I guess I will have to look at that more carefully before doing a long range trip.
 

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What? I have not charged outside my garage yet. So, the Ford P'n'C is 50% more expensive than using the app of EA or other charging companies?
I guess I will have to look at that more carefully before doing a long range trip.
I found out that if you have P&C active the charging station defaults to the Ford Pass app and charges the higher rate. To be accurate to get the lowered rate there's a $4 per month fee. However, it can be turned on and off with no penalty. So, if no long-distance trips are planned cancel it until just before the trip. Even at the full $48 per year it pays for itself after a couple of charges.
 

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I'm surprised that there is no rallying of the troops on this website to help pressure the Treasury Department to correct the definition of an SUV to the marketplace - understanding the EV industry move to efficiency from lighter weight. There should also be pressure on Ford to lower its prices for the benefit of EV adoption of all Ford models, but I understand the reluctance of current owners to reduce their resale value. (See the agonizing of recent Tesla buyers on their websites.)
 

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I'm surprised that there is no rallying of the troops on this website to help pressure the Treasury Department to correct the definition of an SUV to the marketplace - understanding the EV industry move to efficiency from lighter weight. There should also be pressure on Ford to lower its prices for the benefit of EV adoption of all Ford models, but I understand the reluctance of current owners to reduce their resale value. (See the agonizing of recent Tesla buyers on their websites.)
Really hard for a normal car buyer to get excited about those complaining about not getting a Federal Tax Credit on a $60,000 plus car! If you can afford a $60,000 car do you really need or deserve a tax credit? This is really a First World Problem.

As to reducing the price of the MachE: With Tesla slashing their prices do you not think it is inevitable that other car makers, including Ford will have to do the same? Tesla has made a decision not give up market share.

This is the way capitalism is supposed to work.

Remember when I posted that those who have paid above MSRP for their MachE will in the future when they go to either sell their cars or trade them will be extremely disappointed?
 

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The tax credits are to incentivize sale of EVs. It makes absolute sense to include $60,000 SUVs or $67,000 Mach Es. They represent a good portion of the marketplace. It would have been better for other EV makers if Tesla hadn't gone quite so deep in their Model Y discount to meet the absurd non-SUV definition eligibility. A more modest cut with tax credit eligibility would have been less devastating to the competition, primarily the Mach E and the ID4 - North American built competition. There will be a lot of order cancellations in coming months.

50,000/80,000 and 150,000/225,000/300/000 are very reasonable upper limits to keep the addressable market broad, including most of the middle class while not rewarding the rich.
 

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The tax credits are to incentivize sale of EVs. It makes absolute sense to include $60,000 SUVs or $67,000 Mach Es. They represent a good portion of the marketplace. It would have been better for other EV makers if Tesla hadn't gone quite so deep in their Model Y discount to meet the absurd non-SUV definition eligibility. A more modest cut with tax credit eligibility would have been less devastating to the competition, primarily the Mach E and the ID4 - North American built competition. There will be a lot of order cancellations in coming months.

50,000/80,000 and 150,000/225,000/300/000 are very reasonable upper limits to keep the addressable market broad, including most of the middle class while not rewarding the rich.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and everyone wants the tax laws to favor them.


Keep in mind that the average income in the US is less than $35,000 per year.

see: average income in us - Google Search

The percentage of families that make over $300,000 per year is 2%

see: What percentage of American families make over 300k - Google Search

What you are advocating is tax breaks for 2% of the population and at $80,000 for a car that is more than double what the average family makes not in one year but in two years!

The IRA tax breaks are aimed at the wealthy or one could argue the very wealthy.

Finally, this is not "free money". This is money that all Americans pay in their taxes. Faced with the choice of building better schools, better roads and bridges and better health care vs. tax breaks for the very wealth in the form of tax credits, I prefer the former to the later.

Just my $.02!

PS: Was in my Ford dealer yesterday. Basically no foot traffic. Salesmen sitting around on the iPhones.

6 weeks ago there was a MachE GT with a $5,000 ADM on the floor. Yesterday it was still there. With the ADM the price is $72,000 with no Federal Tax Credit. Saw a mother and son looking at the car. Do not know if they bought.
 

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...The IRA tax breaks are aimed at the wealthy or one could argue the very wealthy...
Not really...

I guess we will never see eye to eye on this but just remember that previously there was a $7500 tax credit available for every single EV sold except Tesla and GM with no limit on cost, income or manufacturer. That law was cancelled for non-North American manufacturers last August and replaced by the IRA for North American manufacturers without the 200,000-unit limit that shut off Tesla and GM. The IRA does two things: First it incentivizes North American manufacturing of Batteries and cars; and second it incentivizes purchasing EVs by bringing pricing closer to ICE cars. It also finally does put new caps on prices and income.

It is just as important for EV adoption for people making $200,000 to consider a Mach E a better deal than a BMW X3 or Audi Q5 as it is to let the $50,000 earner choose a Bolt EV for less than a Corolla. Maybe $300,000 is a higher family income limit than you would like, but in the California EV adoption capital of the US it is not unusual or considered excessive in the Bay Area or SOCAL.

(Read a little further and you will see that the median family income is about $80,000.)
 

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Not really...

I guess we will never see eye to eye on this but just remember that previously there was a $7500 tax credit available for every single EV sold except Tesla and GM with no limit on cost, income or manufacturer. That law was cancelled for non-North American manufacturers last August and replaced by the IRA for North American manufacturers without the 200,000-unit limit that shut off Tesla and GM. The IRA does two things: First it incentivizes North American manufacturing of Batteries and cars; and second it incentivizes purchasing EVs by bringing pricing closer to ICE cars. It also finally does put new caps on prices and income.
Nothing to disagree with.

But this does not change the fact that:

  • The $80,000 cap is more than twice the average American income and equal to the median income, your quote, of an American family. Surely no one would who earns before taxes, either $32,000 or $80,000 can afford to buy an $80,000 car or even a $60,000 car.
  • A family that earns $300,000 per year is in the top 2% of American earners.
My point is: No matter how you cut it, these tax credits, paid for by all Americans, rich and poor, dramatically favor the rich or very rick.

IMO, and again you may disagree, we should not be taking tax revenues from ordinary working people and give $7,500 to a person making $150,000 per year or a couple making $300,000. People making this kind of income, a multiple of what the average American makes, do not need a tax break.

Can you honestly say that giving a $7,5000 tax break to a couple making $300,000 a year is better use of tax revenue than fixing our roads, bridges, tunnel, education and health care? Remember that with all taxes, this is a finite number: so whatever goes in pot "A", tax credits for example, does not go in pot "B", roads, bridges, tunnels, education, health care.

I cannot.

This is my last post on this subject.
 

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Not really...

I guess we will never see eye to eye on this but just remember that previously there was a $7500 tax credit available for every single EV sold except Tesla and GM with no limit on cost, income or manufacturer. That law was cancelled for non-North American manufacturers last August and replaced by the IRA for North American manufacturers without the 200,000-unit limit that shut off Tesla and GM. The IRA does two things: First it incentivizes North American manufacturing of Batteries and cars; and second it incentivizes purchasing EVs by bringing pricing closer to ICE cars. It also finally does put new caps on prices and income.

It is just as important for EV adoption for people making $200,000 to consider a Mach E a better deal than a BMW X3 or Audi Q5 as it is to let the $50,000 earner choose a Bolt EV for less than a Corolla. Maybe $300,000 is a higher family income limit than you would like, but in the California EV adoption capital of the US it is not unusual or considered excessive in the Bay Area or SOCAL.

(Read a little further and you will see that the median family income is about $80,000.)
Those arguments are certainly valid, but on the last point in parentheses, where did you read the median family income in the USA is near $80k? I think it is far closer to the 50s for a family of four.
 

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That's largely because the income range that institutions like Pew Research Center uses to define this cohort is so broad. With the median U.S. income being about $80,000 a year, a household of four earning between roughly $52,000 and $175,000 a year is considered middle class.Oct 28, 2021
 
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