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That's largely because the income range that institutions like Pew Research Center uses to define this cohort is so broad. With the median U.S. income being about $80,000 a year, a household of four earning between roughly $52,000 and $175,000 a year is considered middle class.Oct 28, 2021
The US Census bureau does say it was about $70,784 last year, higher than what I predicted.
 

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Those arguments are certainly valid, but on the last point in parentheses, where did you read the median family income in the USA is near $80k? I think it is far closer to the 50s for a family of four.
I quoted from post #17 by patmurphey:

"(Read a little further and you will see that the median family income is about $80,000.)"
Did not verify, only referenced it to make point that even a median income of $80,000 before taxes: not capable of buying either a $55,000 or $80,000 EV. These tax credits will only go to the wealthy.
 

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Everyone is entitled to their opinion and everyone wants the tax laws to favor them. Keep in mind that the average income in the US is less than $35,000 per year. see: average income in us - Google Search The percentage of families that make over $300,000 per year is 2% see: What percentage of American families make over 300k - Google Search What you are advocating is tax breaks for 2% of the population and at $80,000 for a car that is more than double what the average family makes not in one year but in two years! The IRA tax breaks are aimed at the wealthy or one could argue the very wealthy. Finally, this is not "free money". This is money that all Americans pay in their taxes. Faced with the choice of building better schools, better roads and bridges and better health care vs. tax breaks for the very wealth in the form of tax credits, I prefer the former to the later. Just my $.02! PS: Was in my Ford dealer yesterday. Basically no foot traffic. Salesmen sitting around on the iPhones. 6 weeks ago there was a MachE GT with a $5,000 ADM on the floor. Yesterday it was still there. With the ADM the price is $72,000 with no Federal Tax Credit. Saw a mother and son looking at the car. Do not know if they bought.
Gotta say my wife and I are retirees, with an income not even remotely close to the numbers you gave in your argument. The tax break was the deciding factor in us being able to manage the purchase price.
 

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Gotta say my wife and I are retirees, with an income not even remotely close to the numbers you gave in your argument. The tax break was the deciding factor in us being able to manage the purchase price.
Yup, no question about it: Retires have their expenses in the rear view mirror. Families with children have their expenses in front of them. Each budgets their money entirely differently.
 

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...These tax credits will only go to the wealthy.
Right! Only the wealthy will be able to afford a $20,000 Chevy Bolt...

The tax credits are about incentivizing adoption of American (North American) EVs. It is absurd to not understand the available market and exclude the Ford Mach E, as it was absurd to exclude the Model Y. Tesla had the margins to fix the problem, Ford does not. VW's ID4 is the only other EV SUV produced in NA, but qualifies anyway by price, 53k. The Treasury Departments effort to undermine the IRA's purpose with an archaic definition of SUV was very suspect as to its purpose. Ford is now left holding the bag. The IRA law says up to $80,000 for SUVs whether you think that's just for the wealthy or not. Playing games with the definition of SUVs is political nonsense.

This thread is about a $10,000 difference between the Mach E and the Model Y. Because of Treasury Department chicanery it is actually $20,000. Again, I am surprised that there isn't a Mach E Club effort to petition the Treasury Department to fix the SUV definition for the benefit of continuing growth in sales of the Mach E.
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
Since I have noticed several "gaps" in the post numbers, what appears to be several differences of opinions and a complete divergence from my original post, I will guess that the "man with no MMe" is once again sharing his .02 cents. A couple of points to clarify my intent, the title wasn't about the actual price difference, I picked what I thought to be a significant number. It was meant to get an understanding if those of us who actually own either a MMe or a Mod Y or are considering getting either vehicle believe that given the recent decrease in the Tesla's price is the MMe still a reasonable choice? So, it's not about rebates, looks, or America's median income (all great topics for another post). Given the price difference and the software/hardware of the two brands is the Mustang Mach E still competitive?
 

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Since I have noticed several "gaps" in the post numbers, what appears to be several differences of opinions and a complete divergence from my original post, I will guess that the "man with no MMe" is once again sharing his .02 cents. A couple of points to clarify my intent, the title wasn't about the actual price difference, I picked what I thought to be a significant number. It was meant to get an understanding if those of us who actually own either a MMe or a Mod Y or are considering getting either vehicle believe that given the recent decrease in the Tesla's price is the MMe still a reasonable choice? So, it's not about rebates, looks, or America's median income (all great topics for another post). Given the price difference and the software/hardware of the two brands is the Mustang Mach E still competitive?
Whether I own a MachE or not does not mean that I do not know comparative value - plus and more importantly I am in the market for an EV. (Those who bought before the recent price rises and benefited from the FTC of $7,500 which makes their purchase upwards of $15,000 less than current prices may be something less than objective)

The fact that you posed the question indicates, at least to me, that your question is rhetorical and you already know the answer:

Whether the difference is $10K as you posted, or $20K, my post #6, the MachE is not price competitive with the Tesla Model Y.

My dealer with am ADM of $5K has a MachE GT sitting on his floor for over 5 weeks! Unless the FTC of $7,500 is restore, expect to see cancellations of MachE orders with dealers having cars for immediate delivery and possible discounting.
 

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Point of information:

The Model Y MSRP is $52,990 less Federal Tax Credit of $7,500, to you the buyer $45,490 and delivery within 30 to 45 days or less.

A comparable to the Model Y is the Premium LR AWD, with a MSRP of $66,275 and delivery unknown.

My math calculates that the difference is $20,785 not $10,000.

So my answer would be "No the MachE is not worth $20,000 more than a Model Y"
That model Y doesn’t not have FSD which the Mach E Premium does (Bluecruise), you would have to add the $15K or the $6K option, and it wouldn’t not qualify for the $7.5K rebate anymore Since it would be above $55K.
 

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That model Y doesn’t not have FSD which the Mach E Premium does (Bluecruise), you would have to add the $15K or the $6K option, and it wouldn’t not qualify for the $7.5K rebate anymore Since it would be above $55K.
Strongly suggest you go to Tesla.com and review their no cost included safety features which include but not limited to:

  • 360 degree camera
  • adaptive cruise control
  • emergency braking front and rear
  • lane departure warnings
  • parking assist
  • auto pilot
  • lane centering
This is basically what the MachE has
 

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Strongly suggest you go to Tesla.com and review their no cost included safety features which include but not limited to:

  • 360 degree camera
  • adaptive cruise control
  • emergency braking front and rear
  • lane departure warnings
  • parking assist
  • auto pilot
  • lane centering
This is basically what the MachE has
The list you’re quoting is the Enhance Autopilot option, $6K which is not included in the base price MSRP of the Model Y, that brings above the $55k losing the $7.5K rebate. The Mach E Premium includes that. Sugest you go back and read it again.
 

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That model Y doesn’t not have FSD which the Mach E Premium does (Bluecruise), you would have to add the $15K or the $6K option, and it wouldn’t not qualify for the $7.5K rebate anymore Since it would be above $55K.
Software options do not count against the IRA limits.

The list you’re quoting is the Enhance Autopilot option, $6K which is not included in the base price MSRP of the Model Y, that brings above the $55k losing the $7.5K rebate. The Mach E Premium includes that. Sugest you go back and read it again.
No, those are all include in the standard autopilot except that none provide an overhead camera view, but you can have all four side camera views on the screen while driving. Blue Cruise has auto lane changes the standard Tesla autopilot does not. (The 6k enhanced autopilot changes lanes automatically to maintain speed, if I'm not wrong Blue Cruise will change lanes if you initiate with a signal, not automatically.) Tesla 's standard autopilot works on any marked road with reasonable curves, Blue Cruise requires mapped highways. Lane changes with autopilot are not awkward - signal, camera view appears on screen, disengagement force drops allowing smooth lane change, then two down clicks on the stalk reengages lane keeping.

Lane changes on the highway are not worth $20,000. $20,000 loan over 5 years at 4%, payment is $368 a month. Tesla FSD BETA now on wide release is $200 a month for a subscription - navigate anywhere in almost any conditions with no more requirement to monitor than with Blue Cruise.
 

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The list you’re quoting is the Enhance Autopilot option, $6K which is not included in the base price MSRP of the Model Y, that brings above the $55k losing the $7.5K rebate. The Mach E Premium includes that. Sugest you go back and read it again.
You are incorrect. All what I posted is standard at no extra charge

What the MachE has in addition is Blue cruise hands free which permits on certain roads hands free driving.

Tesla’s hands free will require you to put your hands on the steering wheel every 45 seconds

The $6,000 option you reference permits total hands free plus exit and entrance to a destination set in the navigation

IMO the $6,000 is not worth the extra money. Nor is the Blue Cruise worth $20,000 extra.
 

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Slight correction - all of Tesla's autopilot functions, base autopilot, enhanced autopilot and FSD beta require hands on. Interior camera watching for attention is available, but I believe it is now being used as an additional reminder only with FSD beta.
 

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Next month I will own my MMe for two years and while I have owned some really nice 'rides' the MMe is a great vehicle that I love driving. OK now subjective things like 'looks' aside are the features offered by Ford on the MMe worth $10K more than the Model Y with comparable features?
The politics of whether the rebate is good or bad or who should benefit from it, the recent price reduction of the Model Y + the near term $7500 fed rebate makes the Model Y a more competitively priced option for a vehicle that can be delivered w/in a very short window. If you like the features and the way the Model Y looks and feels, then by all means go for it vs. waiting on a more expensive MME. That said, I'm VERY happy w/my 2021 MME Premium and would still have chosen it over the Y.
 

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Next month I will own my MMe for two years and while I have owned some really nice 'rides' the MMe is a great vehicle that I love driving. OK now subjective things like 'looks' aside are the features offered by Ford on the MMe worth $10K more than the Model Y with comparable features?
Having owned my MME for almost two years now, I can say that we love it, AND I think that $10K price gap is a tough sell versus the Model 3/Y. When we were shopping it, MME was price competitive and offered the tax credit that the Tesla no longer qualified for.
 

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Really hard for a normal car buyer to get excited about those complaining about not getting a Federal Tax Credit on a $60,000 plus car! If you can afford a $60,000 car do you really need or deserve a tax credit? This is really a First World Problem.

As to reducing the price of the MachE: With Tesla slashing their prices do you not think it is inevitable that other car makers, including Ford will have to do the same? Tesla has made a decision not give up market share.

This is the way capitalism is supposed to work.

Remember when I posted that those who have paid above MSRP for their MachE will in the future when they go to either sell their cars or trade them will be extremely disappointed?
Agreed that it’s a first world problem, and I’m certainly not expecting sympathy, but my wife and I work long hours to earn an income where we could buy our MME. We have no kids, so our only tax shelter is what we can stuff into 401Ks and mortgage interest. Yes, we want that tax credit, and given the taxes we pay, I definitely feel like we deserve it.
 

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Point of information:

The Model Y MSRP is $52,990 less Federal Tax Credit of $7,500, to you the buyer $45,490 and delivery within 30 to 45 days or less.

A comparable to the Model Y is the Premium LR AWD, with a MSRP of $66,275 and delivery unknown.

My math calculates that the difference is $20,785 not $10,000.

So my answer would be "No the MachE is not worth $20,000 more than a Model Y"
In my view, yours is an nonsensical comparison. Because for over 99% of the days of the year, range is irrelevant. I start every day with a "full tank" and never drive more than 200 miles in any single day with the exception of a rare road trip. And those trips are easily managed with either car, or my ICE Lincoln. And has Anybody Ever compared two ICE cars by the size of their gas tanks? The standard range Premium is about the same price as the Y and: a) Yes, the Mach E qualifies for same $7500 Fed tax credit, b) has far better financing (Ford Options), c) has a far better BnO stereo (a huge decision factor for me), d) a far better interior, including a drivers side gauges, better seats, better colors, more luxury amenities, e) far better looks, f) etc. No comparison between the two.
 

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Point of information:

The Model Y MSRP is $52,990 less Federal Tax Credit of $7,500, to you the buyer $45,490 and delivery within 30 to 45 days or less.

A comparable to the Model Y is the Premium LR AWD, with a MSRP of $66,275 and delivery unknown.

My math calculates that the difference is $20,785 not $10,000.

So my answer would be "No the MachE is not worth $20,000 more than a Model Y"
In my view, yours is an nonsensical comparison. Because for over 99% of the days of the year, range is irrelevant. I start every day with a "full tank" and never drive more than 200 miles in any single day with the exception of a rare road trip. And those trips are easily managed with either car, or my ICE Lincoln. And has Anybody Ever compared two ICE cars by the size of their gas tanks? The standard range Premium is about the same price : a) Yes, it qualifies for same $7500 Fed tax credit, b) has far better financing (Ford Options), c) has a far better BnO stereo (a huge decision factor for me), d) a far better interior, including a drivers side gauges, better seats, better colors, more luxury amenities, e) far better looks, f) etc. No comparison between the two.
Strongly suggest you go to Tesla.com and review their no cost included safety features which include but not limited to:

  • 360 degree camera
  • adaptive cruise control
  • emergency braking front and rear
  • lane departure warnings
  • parking assist
  • auto pilot
  • lane centering
This is basically what the MachE has
Mach E Premium: better seats than Tesla, far better stereo, amazing glass moonroof, Blue Cruise self driving mode, important driver side gauges, excellent interior amenities (storage, phone charging, comfort features, welcome puddle lights, power rear lift gate. Etc. Basically, the Y is a taller version of the Model 3 econobox. All Teslas except for the S share one thing in common: their design is sadly and overtly "Model S wannabe." Completely lacking in design creativity. So If you only care about mashing the accelerator pedal to the floor and driving 300 miles without stopping, then by all means, get the Y.
 
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