[Tye]

The reason I ask this, is because I’m seeing this compare to BEV releases from the likes of Audi and Jaguar. The vibe I get from them is more upscale than the MME. While this definitely isn’t a starter car, I feel like this is an in betweener. What do you guys think?

 

[macchiaz-o]

It's a non-luxury car but at a high price due to being battery electric, and with TONS of tech including some more commonly found in luxury cars. So I guess it's an in-betweener.

 

[JTK44]

Interesting question:

If this were an ICE, priced at $58,000 (Premium Long range AWD) we would expect a luxury car: that would included upscale interior, excellent fit and finish, quiet smooth ride with responsive handling.

Technology, including over the air updates, are interesting, but only important if it improves the features that I use everyday and this is already available on many ICE cars where navigation is regularly updated.

So we must wait and see if over the air updates are meaningful.

My simple short answer is that when a manufacturer expects me to shell out close to $60,000, the price of Mercedes C class, an Audi A4 or BMW 3 and 4 series, I expect similar quality.

Granted the MachE has a Federal Tax credit of $7,500 but the Mercedes, Audi and BMW are deeply discounted so the purchase prices are pretty much similar.

The larger Mercedes E Class, BMW 5 series and Audi A6, after discounting will be within 10% of the price of the MachE LR AWD.

But keep in mind, when cars cost $55,000 more than 60% are leased. The Mercedes, Audi and BMW will lease out for substantially less than the MachE using the Ford Option Plan.

Using lease payments as a criteria, the MachE is also priced as a luxury car.

This is the conundrum: As compared to true luxury cars like Mercedes, BMW and Audi, how much are you willing to give up to go green or are you better off waiting for the luxury manufactures BEV's which will cost more but give you a true luxury car experience.

This would be so much easier if the MachE was priced as the Model Y - with the Federal Tax credit bringing the price down to the low 40's it would be a "no brainer" in favor of the MachE.

.

 

[MachDrive]

The price range of the MMe (non-GT) is $36k to $53k, after $7,500 credit. With or without the credit, MMe pricing fits squarely in the middle of pricing of all Ford vehicles.

I hope when we finally see production MMe’s in person, they will perform as expected, be well built and refined.

And just as important, Ford adjusts the Options Plan to make the MMe payments more palatable.

 

[JTK44]

The price range of the MMe (non-GT) is $36k to $53k, after $7,500 credit. With or without the credit, MMe pricing fits squarely in the middle of pricing of all Ford vehicles.

From: https://www.ford.com/

• Escape starting at $24,885
• Bronco Sport starting at $26,660
• Bronco starting at $28,550
• Edge starting at $31,100
• Explorer starting at $32,765
• Expedition starting at $52,810

The above are MSRP and unlike the MachE dealers heavily discount from MSRP and Ford has incentives which further reduces the price.


.

And just as important, Ford adjusts the Options Plan to make the MMe payments more palatable.

THANKS! (Glad to see that you agree the payments under the Ford Option plan are non-starters!)

 

[MachDrive]

From: https://www.ford.com/

• Escape starting at $24,885
• Bronco Sport starting at $26,660
• Bronco starting at $28,550
• Edge starting at $31,100
• Explorer starting at $32,765
• Expedition starting at $52,810

Like I said, the MMe range is $36k-$53k (or $43k-$60k without fed credit) is in the middle of The Ford US consumer models’ price range of $20k-$84k.

Its mostly the financing (and/or incentives) on the MMe that needs assistance.

 

[Summerlin Bob]

Based on reliability, fit, finish, handling and comfort, many vehicles in the luxury class fall short. Dating back <20 years I've owned a BMW, Caddy, Jag, Audi and a Benz all purchased new. The first two I had no issues in the three and two years respectively that I owned them. The Jag's AirCon and the steering wheel Cruise switch both failed in year one, the Audi showed up with the rear passenger quarter panel badly misaligned and the Benz trunk leaked. These vehicles ranged from $60K+ to $90K+ certainly a price point worthy of near perfection.
I'm attaching the Consumer Reports 2020 car ratings as a frame of reference that 'luxury pricing' only guarantees one thing, a high lease or finance payment

 

[Tye]

Based on reliability, fit, finish, handling and comfort, many vehicles in the luxury class fall short. Dating back <20 years I've owned a BMW, Caddy, Jag, Audi and a Benz all purchased new. The first two I had no issues in the three and two years respectively that I owned them. The Jag's AirCon and the steering wheel Cruise switch both failed in year one, the Audi showed up with the rear passenger quarter panel badly misaligned and the Benz trunk leaked. These vehicles ranged from $60K+ to $90K+ certainly a price point worthy of near perfection.
I'm attaching the Consumer Reports 2020 car ratings as a frame of reference that 'luxury pricing' only guarantees one thing, a high lease or finance payment

Please excuse mistakes. Typing on my phone.
Make no mistake. What you said rings very true and thank you for the consumer report. Besides what you said, I also didn't know Ford fell back that far.

But anywho, as competition goes; when has Ford ever been compared to Audi, Mercedes, or Jaguar? Their BEVs may not have the range of the MME, but they're still luxury brands. They have trims that are $20-30k above even the MME GT's pricing. So what's the criteria being used by Ford and articles for comparison? To me its : MME, Tesla Models, Nissan Ariya, Electric Jeep Renegade etc Their trims, features, and driving experiences seem more on par against MME.

 

[macchiaz-o]

As competition goes; when has Ford ever been compared to Audi, Mercedes, or Jaguar? Their BEVs may not have the range of the MME, but they're still luxury brands. They have trims that are $20-30k above even the MME GT's pricing. So what's the criteria being used by Ford and articles for comparison? To me its : MME, Tesla Models, Nissan Ariya, Electric Jeep Renegade etc Their trims, features, and driving experiences seem more on par against MME.

One of the issues here is that the playing field for BEVs in the US is still not very big.

The non-luxury players to compare Mach-E to would be the Hyundai Kona Electric, Kia Niro EV, and Chevrolet Bolt.

The full electrics from Hyundai and Kia are barely available in the US. They primarily sell them in ZEV compliance states, in smaller quantities, and not really anywhere else. Niro's a similar price to Mach-E and less attractive/equipped (IMHO). Kona's starting price is significantly lower, though it's also much smaller. I've driven the Niro PHEV (not the BEV) and I've driven the Kona Electric. Neither one felt sporty. They didn't feel bad or anything, just mundane.

The Bolt is available everywhere, but it's hard to look at. Especially the interior. Just my opinion of course. And I think GM's stated that it's on its way out? (To be replaced with the "Bolt EUV" at some point.)

Anyway, I think this is part of why Mach-E ends up being compared to Jaguars and Audis. There's just not a ton of choices out there for US customers.

 

[JTK44]

Competition for the MachE:

Audi Q4-tron, estimated price $45,000

see: 2021 Audi Q4 e-tron: What We Know So Far

VW ID4 estimated price under $45,000

see: 2021 Volkswagen ID.4 EV Interior Revealed, Looking Uncluttered

Tesla Model Y: price $49,990

MachE Premium AWD LR, $58,000

 

[machstang]

tech and luxury in non-luxury cars have been increasing over the years with brands like Volkswagen, Honda, Toyota and the list goes on. The VW Atlas is a good example. Its good enough to make some forget about buying an Audi

 

[Summerlin Bob]

tech and luxury in non-luxury cars have been increasing over the years with brands like Volkswagen, Honda, Toyota and the list goes on. The VW Atlas is a good example. Its good enough to make some forget about buying an Audi

My Fusion Energi has more features at $30,000 less cost than my 2016 Audi S5, albeit while considerably slower 0-60 times

 

[Summerlin Bob]

The reason I ask this, is because I’m seeing this compare to BEV releases from the likes of Audi and Jaguar. The vibe I get from them is more upscale than the MME. While this definitely isn’t a starter car, I feel like this is an in betweener. What do you guys think?

@Tye shaping up to be a good thread for discussion

 

[Tye]

@Tye shaping up to be a good thread for discussion

Anything to help constructively pass time. Is it November yet? Lol

 

[timbop]

Competition for the MachE:

Audi Q4-tron, estimated price $45,000

see: 2021 Audi Q4 e-tron: What We Know So Far

VW ID4 estimated price under $45,000

see: 2021 Volkswagen ID.4 EV Interior Revealed, Looking Uncluttered

Tesla Model Y: price $49,990

MachE Premium AWD LR, $58,000

Right, but the $45k id4 and etron are likely to be the SR and not ER versions, so the more apt comparison is the Select RWD at $43900 or AWD at $46,600

 

[pca371]

I suppose it depends on how you define a luxury car. If you look past simply defining it by brand, it would be based on the features that differentiate a luxury car from a non-luxury one. Things like fit and finish and comfort used to be on the list, but non-luxury cars have pretty much closed the gap (squeak down the road in a late-model Mercedes if you don't believe me). I think what's left are things like advanced construction materials, cutting-edge tech, premium sound systems and better-than-average power and performance. RWD platforms are also more common among luxury cars.

Based on that I suppose anything but the base trim would qualify.

 

[JTK44]

I suppose it depends on how you define a luxury car. If you look past simply defining it by brand, it would be based on the features that differentiate a luxury car from a non-luxury one. Things like fit and finish and comfort used to be on the list, but non-luxury cars have pretty much closed the gap (squeak down the road in a late-model Mercedes if you don't believe me). I think what's left are things like advanced construction materials, cutting-edge tech, premium sound systems and better-than-average power and performance. RWD platforms are also more common among luxury cars.

Based on that I suppose anything but the base trim would qualify.

I think you mean rwd biased: Virtually all BMW and Mercedes in the Northeast and Northwest while RWD biased are in fact AWD and of course the base Audi's are FWD and with the AWD option, "Quattro."

It seems to me that luxury encompasses the following:

• Price
• Fit and Finish
• Materials used: wood and leather as opposed to cheap plastic
• Handling
• Ride
• Acceleration
• Features

Features: safety features like lane departure warning, front collision, back up warning and active cruise control have filtered down to Toyota Camry's and Honda Accords. In fact every convenience feature on my Mercedes E450 I have on my Ford Edge Sport.

So in mind what makes the Mercedes a luxury car and the Ford Edge Sport not:

• Price: the Mercedes MSRP is more than $20,000 more than the Edge
• Interior: Not only the fit and finish but materials used and the esthetics of the Mercedes. It is simply beautiful to look at and be in. Yesterday I was in my friends Maserati: it is luxurious.
• Ride: the Mercedes ride is superb: it is supple yet handles well; bumps are felt but are not jarring and it is very quiet. When you are in a Mercedes you feel like a bank vault.

When you have a car with a MSRP of over $60,000, the First Edition I have ordered, you expect either a luxurious ride or outstanding performance and handling to justify the price.

The Model Y fails miserably on the fit and finish, materials used and somewhat on the ride. But the Model Y is a home run when handling and acceleration and the enjoyment of the drive are taken into the account. When driven, drivers have a smile on their face - not because the Model Y is an EV, but because the driving experience is superlative and unique and therefore the price is justified.

At $50,000 to $60,000 to be a success the MachE must be more than an EV: it must offer a luxurious experience or outstanding ride, acceleration and handling or both!

 

[pca371]

At $50,000 to $60,000 to be a success the MachE must be more than an EV: it must offer a luxurious experience or outstanding ride, acceleration and handling or both!

I agree that it has to be at least near-lux for the price, and I think that unless they screw something up badly they're on the right track. From what I've seen the touch points are all quote good.

Also, yes on the RWD-biased AWD. Although some companies sell large numbers of RWD cars in wintry states. Here in Buffalo, NY I can go out and get them from several manufacturers. I'm at end-of-lease on my RWD Alfa and spent some quality time in RWD Maseratis (one benefit of the famous Alfa reliability, lots of time to spend in various Italian loaner cars). Before that I had a RWD Genesis. It's a defining trait for a lot of luxury vehicles because of the improved dynamics and better styling proportions.

 

[JTK44]

Having owned a FIAT (Fix it again Tony) and living in Buffalo and owning an Alfa, everything you say is now suspect!

Just kidding, but it does take a lot of courage to own an Italian car, any Italian car, especially in Buffalo: I spent three years in Syracuse attending law school in the 1960's.

To get a RWD luxury car in the North East, you almost have to special order it: Dealers here on Long Island carry only AWD or FWD, no RWD.. AWD does not change the styling, except for an insignia on the trunk, similar to the MachE.

Maserati, Lamborghini, Ferrari are specialty cars so they might be available in RWD and who in their right mind would drive any of them in the rain and God forbid in the snow!

 

[Maric]

I'm driving a 2018 Audi Q5 Premium now. Great SUV. But I'll never buy an Audi, BMW or Mercedes for the following reasons. You get killed for every little service. Audi charges $400 to replace and air filter, lube the pano roof, and replace brake fluid. This is a required service at approx. 24 months. One of the things I like most about the Q5 is the digital dashboard and integrated map tools. But after 6 months, you have to pay $600 a year to keep all the neat functionality. BMW charges a yearly subscription fee for Android or Apple functionality, which 99% of manufacturers offer for free. So yeah, the MachE may be premium priced but not premium. But trust me, you don't want the money sink that comes with maintaining a luxury brand auto.

I 'really' hope Ford doesn't get any ideas with it's over the air service. I'll pay minimal sub fees but we'll see what their plans are.