[theothertom]

The specs say the largest battery is ~100kWh (ok, 98.8) with an estimated 300 mile range. My guess (hope) is that the Mach-E will get at least 4 miles/kWh under "normal" driving conditions, so that the real range will be closer to 400 miles. All other EV's on the market today are EPA rated around 4 miles/kWh. One thing that could make it lower is the drag coefficient. The pics seem to show a blunt front end which would increase drag. OTOH, the BMW i3 and Chevy Bolt aren't so aerodynamic looking either, so maybe there's hope for the Mach-E.

Charging rate is listed as 0-80% in 45 minutes when using a 150kW charger. AFAIK, EA is the only company (other than Tesla which doesn't count in this case) that offers 150kW chargers. Unfortunately, from my experience, about 50% of EA chargers either don't work or require excessive action by EA to start the charger. I don't know if Ford will help fix this or not, but it needs to be fixed before the Mach-E (and VW's EV's) hit the market.

IMO, 45 minutes is too long to wait around at a charger. Unless we're stopping for a meal, I'm comfortable waiting for about 20 minutes. At the stated rate, a 20 minute charge will add 35 kWh, or about 140 miles, or about 2 hours driving on the interstate. I really wish the Mach-E would charge faster so that I could drive for about 2.5-3 hours on the interstate. Of course charging at home is not an issue. You plug in at night and wake up to a full charge. It's only the long trips that are an issue from a charging time standpoint.

These are my thoughts....yours?

 

[BoltPride]

Going into 3rd year of BEV. Have only given a thought to any charging when gauge reads low. Same for my toy ICE and its need for gas.
For me any more BEV thoughts concerning its workings are overthinking. My BEV is full time every day reliable transport. Just get and go. It is what cars always should have been

 

[timbop]

The specs say the largest battery is ~100kWh (ok, 98.8) with an estimated 300 mile range. My guess (hope) is that the Mach-E will get at least 4 miles/kWh under "normal" driving conditions, so that the real range will be closer to 400 miles. All other EV's on the market today are EPA rated around 4 miles/kWh. One thing that could make it lower is the drag coefficient. The pics seem to show a blunt front end which would increase drag. OTOH, the BMW i3 and Chevy Bolt aren't so aerodynamic looking either, so maybe there's hope for the Mach-E.

Charging rate is listed as 0-80% in 45 minutes when using a 150kW charger. AFAIK, EA is the only company (other than Tesla which doesn't count in this case) that offers 150kW chargers. Unfortunately, from my experience, about 50% of EA chargers either don't work or require excessive action by EA to start the charger. I don't know if Ford will help fix this or not, but it needs to be fixed before the Mach-E (and VW's EV's) hit the market.

IMO, 45 minutes is too long to wait around at a charger. Unless we're stopping for a meal, I'm comfortable waiting for about 20 minutes. At the stated rate, a 20 minute charge will add 35 kWh, or about 140 miles, or about 2 hours driving on the interstate. I really wish the Mach-E would charge faster so that I could drive for about 2.5-3 hours on the interstate. Of course charging at home is not an issue. You plug in at night and wake up to a full charge. It's only the long trips that are an issue from a charging time standpoint.

These are my thoughts....yours?

Agree that this is Ford's achilles heel; my mach-e will be my everyday ride but unfortunately for long road trips we'll use one of our gas vehicles.

 

[eastern refugee]

Agree that this is Ford's achilles heel; my mach-e will be my everyday ride but unfortunately for long road trips we'll use one of our gas vehicles.

I am the opposite mind set. Electric cars require a different mentality which is why only 4% of the market are electric. Gas cares are easy. Gas, maintenance and drive and when they hit 150,009 or less trade and do it again. Electric cars are like phones. You charge when you feel the battery will not last. Long drives in a gas car are as follows. Drive get gas when you need to, use the bathroom at another stop which may be independently of gas and sit down to eat or get snacks which will take awhile and then fill up. With an electric car, like your phone you have to combine items. Like eat and allow car to charge as you eat. Pull off for the bathroom and fill up for 10 minutes. No way in heck is gas cheaper then paying for electricity. Sure you may pull off for say 20 mi utes to charge but you would do that anyway because getting gas and stopping for snacks on a road trip do not always convinced. In short you just need to change the way you think and plan appropriately.

 

[Billyk24]

But, there are limited number of fast charging locations. Will a spot be open when you arrive? Never have to wait very long at the gas pump do we? More fast charging locations are needed and needed in areas other than where EA is building their system. Rural areas are going to be a painful experience for many.,

 

[dbsb3233]

It's more than just having enough charging stations, IMO. The real killer for distance driving is the terrible drive time vs public recharge time ratio. As the OP said, 2 hours of driving then 45 minutes of charging (repeatedly) just doesn't cut it for a full-day trip.

And that's not even accounting for the 20-25% drop in range at 75 MPH highway speed. Most people just aren't going to want to spend 3-4 hours making charging stops for an all-day drive.

Which means for most people, BEVs will be around-home daily drive vehicles only (recharging at home) . They'll use an ICE vehicle (even if a rental) for long trips (>200 miles or so). But that's not all bad either. The vast majority of miles are daily use around home, where they're great vehicles.

 

[pew]

It's more than just having enough charging stations, IMO. The real killer for distance driving is the terrible drive time vs public recharge time ratio. As the OP said, 2 hours of driving then 45 minutes of charging (repeatedly) just doesn't cut it for a full-day trip.

And that's not even accounting for the 20-25% drop in range at 75 MPH highway speed. Most people just aren't going to want to spend 3-4 hours making charging stops for an all-day drive.

Which means for most people, BEVs will be around-home daily drive vehicles only (recharging at home) . They'll use an ICE vehicle (even if a rental) for long trips (>200 miles or so). But that's not all bad either. The vast majority of miles are daily use around home, where they're great vehicles.

Typical exaggerated talking point from fossil fuel backers. Do you realize 2 hour of driving is just 120 miles on 60mph avg?

Try this:
3.5 hours for 200 miles, charge 60 min while eating lunch+potty break. Back on the road for another 2.5 hours 150 miles. That's 350 miles for 6-7 hours of driving... enough for 1 day. Get some food, check in to a hotel, let the car charge on free L2 overnight. Day 2, repeat.

Larger battery pack, you can probably go 20-30% farther per day with 8-9 hours of driving.

 

[eastern refugee]

Typical exaggerated talking point from fossil fuel backers. Do you realize 2 hour of driving is just 120 miles on 60mph avg?

Try this:
3.5 hours for 200 miles, charge 60 min while eating lunch+potty break. Back on the road for another 2.5 hours 150 miles. That's 350 miles for 6-7 hours of driving... enough for 1 day. Get some food, check in to a hotel, let the car charge on free L2 overnight. Day 2, repeat.

Larger battery pack, you can probably go 20-30% farther per day with 8-9 hours of driving.

Thank you. EV requires a different mind set. It is like a cell phone. Does anyone really know how long a phone stays charged??? Not likely. We charge it at optimum times like at night or when home. On a long drive one just needs to think it through. Simple enough. The concept of electric panic is silly. Just change your thought process

 

[dbsb3233]

Typical exaggerated talking point from fossil fuel backers. Do you realize 2 hour of driving is just 120 miles on 60mph avg?

Try this:
3.5 hours for 200 miles, charge 60 min while eating lunch+potty break. Back on the road for another 2.5 hours 150 miles. That's 350 miles for 6-7 hours of driving... enough for 1 day. Get some food, check in to a hotel, let the car charge on free L2 overnight. Day 2, repeat.

Larger battery pack, you can probably go 20-30% farther per day with 8-9 hours of driving.

Could do without the snark. I'll ignore it this time.

More like 75 MPH, for the interstates in my part of the country anyway. I have no interest in toodling along at 60 on a 75 MPH interstate. And based on my observation of other drivers on the road, very few of them are either (thankfully, as it would screw up traffic flows).

The data I've seen shows around a 20-25% worse MPkWh at 75 MPH. Feel free to show if that's incorrect though. That means your 200 mile segment just shrank to 150 to reach the same battery drain point. And that's 2 hours, not 3.5. Then the recharge. Lather/rinse/repeat.

If I'm going 600 miles, I'm interested in doing it in one day, not two. If you're not, that's fine. But lots of people don't want to waste an extra day on each end of a road trip (or don't have the time off work to). That means 2 less days at your destination compared to driving straight through. Which is still very possible with a vehicle better suited for it.

Around home within a 200 mile trip, the Mach-e should be fantastic. Then back in the garage for a full recharge every night. Perfect fit. But a 600 mile drive? Too much compromise and lost time IMO. I'll drive my 2nd car or rent one for the occasional long trip.

 

[dbsb3233]

Thank you. EV requires a different mind set. It is like a cell phone. Does anyone really know how long a phone stays charged??? Not likely. We charge it at optimum times like at night or when home. On a long drive one just needs to think it through. Simple enough. The concept of electric panic is silly. Just change your thought process

If I've got a cell phone that needs to be recharged 3 times during the day for the purpose I need it for, I'll seek out a different type of phone and power source that suits that need better. Rather than trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

The Mach-e will fit my around-home daily driving perfectly. Just not the long-drive needs. If some others are content taking 50% longer to get to their destination, with a lot of constraints, that's fine for them. Others won't be content with that. To each his own.

 

[pew]

If I'm going 600 miles, I'm interested in doing it in one day, not two. If you're not, that's fine. But lots of people don't want to waste an extra day on each end of a road trip (or don't have the time off work to). That means 2 less days at your destination compared to driving straight through. Which is still very possible with a vehicle better suited for it.

600 miles in one day. Then you need to add a week in the ICU plus a couple of months for rehab. Better to take it slow or get a Tesla with FSD.

BTW, I used abetterrouteplanner and plotted a 600 mile trip using a Mach-E RWD standard battery and it came out 13.5 hours including charging. Extended range RWD came out 12 hours.

 

[pew]

If I've got a cell phone that needs to be recharged 3 times during the day for the purpose I need it for, I'll seek out a different type of phone and power source that suits that need better. Rather than trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

You do know some people buy a battery case because of that same reason. Landline (equivalent of 'good old proven tech', like gas car) is not an option.

If you need the longer range, the 300 mile extended range sound like an option.

 

[eastern refugee]

I just have this to say on the subject. I live 2 hours north of LA. LA is THE biggest auto market area in the country. More cars are sold here then any where else. I pass 18 wheelers carrying new Tesla’s EVERY day. now sure you can say for local use except there is one supercharger between Bakersfield and LA and two between San Francisco and LA which by the way is a 7 hour drive. Both of them can recharge about 30-40 cars at a time. There are at least 15 cars charging g when I pass. The traffic on I-5 between these two cities is 24/7 and it seems like every fifth car is a Tesla. The reason Tesla sells so many is that no one else until now coukd basically match the battery size. If gas were cheaper then electric on the road Tesla would not have invested zillions of dollars into these HUGE supercharger stations throughout the west. I have seen these from Cali to Texas and through Utah to LV. I am an insurance agent and I insure a heck of a lot of them. My clients take them everywhere both local and long distance. Their only complaint about the drive is that the car is just too quiet. They would like to hear some engine noises Ford is the FIRST manufacturer to seriously go head to head with Tesla. Hyundai and Kia and evening Jaguar cannot compete with Tesla. Every article backs that up. It comes down to range. To be even more precise in Cali if you order the larger engine you can take delivery within 2 days. If you order the lowest battery it takes 8-10 weeks. Why??? Because they do not make many. The extended battery is the biggest seller and it is not even close. Why would they sell these if there was not a demand??? Better yet if it was just local then a small battery is all that is needed. If gas were cheaper Tesla would have been out of business many years ago.

 

[dbsb3233]

600 miles in one day. Then you need to add a week in the ICU plus a couple of months for rehab. Better to take it slow or get a Tesla with FSD.

BTW, I used abetterrouteplanner and plotted a 600 mile trip using a Mach-E RWD standard battery and it came out 13.5 hours including charging. Extended range RWD came out 12 hours.

Never spent a day in the ICU, and never needed rehab, thank you very much. If you're incapable of driving 600 miles in one day, or it just isn't your thing, so be it. But no need to look down your nose at those of us that are capable of it.

BTW, I just mapped a 600 mile route out on Google at 8.5 hours. Even with some short breaks in there, it's still multiple hours longer in the EV. And that's something to consider when deciding which vehicle to use on such a trip. If you want to burn the extra time, fine. Doesn't necessarily mean everyone else does. It's a valid consideration.

 

[dbsb3233]

You do know some people buy a battery case because of that same reason. Landline (equivalent of 'good old proven tech', like gas car) is not an option.

If you need the longer range, the 300 mile extended range sound like an option.

You missed the analogy. The longer range and quicker-to-repower counterpart to that insufficient cell phone battery is an ICE vehicle that has longer range and is quickly refueled. Not a "landline" (which you can't even take out of the house.)

It's not a crime to use the right tool for the job. BEVs are great for daily driving around home. That's 99% of all driving. Take the win and be happy about it!

But they're not so great for long road trips that require many public charging station refuels. Some people are willing to compromise their time and flexibility to do that anyway. Fine for them. But we shouldn't pretend that's most people just to try and meet some purity test.

 

[dbsb3233]

If gas were cheaper Tesla would have been out of business many years ago.

No one's saying gas is cheaper in general. The cost of refueling an EV at home electricity rates is roughly a third of the cost of refueling a 25 MPG ICE vehicle (give or take). That's way cheaper than gas, and it's the main selling point of an EV.

Telsa uses their own proprietary-use supercharger network as a loss-leader to promote the sale of their cars. That's a whole different deal.

Where there are instances of an EV refuel costing more than a gas refuel is with some other charging stations, like Electrify America. That doesn't mean the electricity costs them more, it means they're pricing it much higher for customers. They're not installing and maintaining charging stations as a loss-leader like Tesla is. They're trying to recover all their costs (and some profit) in the charging rates. So their prices are high. 45 minutes at $0.89/min can actually cost more than gasoline.

 

[dbsb3233]

At the stated rate, a 20 minute charge will add 35 kWh, or about 140 miles, or about 2 hours driving on the interstate.

And if that interstate driving is at 75 MPH, with the A/C or heat on, that 35 kWh probably only represents 100 miles rather than 140. Maybe even just 90.

4.0 MPkWh is probably a reasonable expectation for overall average (mostly city) driving, but a high-speed interstate segment is more likely to drop to the 3.0-3.5 range.

 

[eastern refugee]

No one's saying gas is cheaper in general. The cost of refueling an EV at home electricity rates is roughly a third of the cost of refueling a 25 MPG ICE vehicle (give or take). That's way cheaper than gas, and it's the main selling point of an EV.

Telsa uses their own proprietary-use supercharger network as a loss-leader to promote the sale of their cars. That's a whole different deal.

Where there are instances of an EV refuel costing more than a gas refuel is with some other charging stations, like Electrify America. That doesn't mean the electricity costs them more, it means they're pricing it much higher for customers. They're not installing and maintaining charging stations as a loss-leader like Tesla is. They're trying to recover all their costs (and some profit) in the charging rates. So their prices are high. 45 minutes at $0.89/min can actually cost more than gasoline.

I am not sure where you are getting 0.89 cents. I looked and at the middle tier it is 0.69 if you pay $4.00 per month. You also have to realize that EA works in a fashion that you do not pick which level of chargingyou do. It does the fastest one. Now the cents per charging comes out the same. Why??? Because if it takes the highest tier it will charge quicker. So all in all the price is the same.As for Tesla they are not doing this as a loss leader as they cannot afford to. Just the opposite they need to make every penny they can to stay in business. That is an entirely different discussion but Tesla is in business by a hair. This is why they are controlling every aspect trying to get EVERY Penney so they do not go under.
You can do all of the math but I took the time to talk to EA and their calculations make sense. I did not sit here trying to figure it out. Instead I talked to them and electricity on a long distance is far cheaper then gas. I back this up with the comment Ford CEO stated. There is an education process to using this car. Now I will say that I have zero clue about rural routes. I do know interstates and Tesla is there. Free charging places could obviously be not working or lines of people. EA is too big not to maintain. On their website if you download the app works just like Tesla. It tells you what is available. Like Tesla they charge extra for a car just sitting there but ata much lower rate. Bottom line is that no one here will know the exact cost of EA until they use them. Like any new product there will be the hesitation to go back to the easier old way. It is the education of understanding and more importantly the decision to alter ones concepts of driving. I have personally spent two years talking to many Tesla employees and reading and talking to my clients. The major difference between EA and Tesla stops have massive amounts of chargers per station but EAchas many more stations in the same city or along the same route. All in all they are equal but EA gives you more freedom to choose where to stop. The REAL concept to understand is that Volkswagen starting in 2022,abdcFord starting in 2021 are EACH spending $11.5 BILLION dollars to go electric with batteries in the 300-400 mile range. These two plus jaguar and others are going to use the same hook ups. Don’t you think companies like EA are going to build massively more charging stations to take on this huge volume of cars?? EV clients are by and far more nerd like then the gas car. Why?? Because you have to use a different side of your brain to figure this out and maximize the new technology. I and a few others have posted on here that the concept of using an electric vehicle is not costlier. It may sound more like a headache due to stops etc but the reality it is the same. It is just that one has to use their other side of their brain to figure out HOW to make it the same instead of taking it for granted like stopping for gas. Hotel chains as well as malls are putting massive amounts of electric chargers in place. Last night in LA I saw roughly 20 electric chargers in a prime area of a parking structure. There was a sign that stated that the car had to be plugged in or pay a $250 fine. So yes charging stations are popping up everywhere where it is convenient. This explains Bank of America jumping on the bandwagon. Why? Because when you are driving and need a charge you know that if you find a Bank of America theoretically there will be a charging station. It also means that you may change banks so that you can charge and do your banking at the same time. Banks are normally located near food places and malls. Once again maximizing your time to charge your car while doing other things.

 

[dbsb3233]

0.89 is the 0-350kW rate in my state (and many states around here) at the pay-as-you-go rate (no monthly subscription). The rate is lower if you pay the monthly subscription fee as you're talking about. For very infrequent EA use, it doesn't make sense to pay a monthly subscription so I would be using the pay-as-you-go 0.89 rate (or whatever it is in each state). You can go to the EA website, click on "Locate a charger", and click on any charger to see the rates.

Ford says the Mach-e charges at 150hW on a fast charger. That would be the 0-350 top rate, not the 0-125 middle rate, as I understand it. Someone else said that the EA chargers use the rate the charging starts at, which presumably will be the max your car can handle (150 in this case). Hopefully someone can correct that if it's wrong.

I'm not even going to address the rest of all that as it kinda went off in the weeds. I'm simply here to discuss facts, and practicality. You claim it's never more expensive to charge a BEV when in fact there are SOME situations where it is. Check comments on EA and you'll find lots of people complaining about how expensive their rates work out to be in many situations (sometimes more than gas). People still pay them, of course, because it's a godsend to have a fast charging station (even an expensive one) where you might otherwise be totally out of luck. Better to pay $40 for a recharge than get stranded on the side of the road, if even a gas refill would have been $30.

BEVs are fantastic for around-home driving, within range of at-home overnight charging. That's the vast majority of driving for most people. But that doesn't mean they always are for long trips that require public charging stations. There's a lot of compromise and limitation and extra time that needs to be considered for that usage. And each potential buyer needs to factor that into their own situation.

 

[eastern refugee]

0.89 is the 0-350kW rate in my state (and many states around here) at the pay-as-you-go rate (no monthly subscription). The rate is lower if you pay the monthly subscription fee as you're talking about. For very infrequent EA use, it doesn't make sense to pay a monthly subscription so I would be using the pay-as-you-go 0.89 rate (or whatever it is in each state). You can go to the EA website, click on "Locate a charger", and click on any charger to see the rates.

Ford says the Mach-e charges at 150hW on a fast charger. That would be the 0-350 top rate, not the 0-125 middle rate, as I understand it. Someone else said that the EA chargers use the rate the charging starts at, which presumably will be the max your car can handle (150 in this case). Hopefully someone can correct that if it's wrong.

I'm not even going to address the rest of all that as it kinda went off in the weeds. I'm simply here to discuss facts, and practicality. You claim it's never more expensive to charge a BEV when in fact there are SOME situations where it is. Check comments on EA and you'll find lots of people complaining about how expensive their rates work out to be in many situations (sometimes more than gas). People still pay them, of course, because it's a godsend to have a fast charging station (even an expensive one) where you might otherwise be totally out of luck. Better to pay $40 for a recharge than get stranded on the side of the road, if even a gas refill would have been $30.

BEVs are fantastic for around-home driving, within range of at-home overnight charging. That's the vast majority of driving for most people. But that doesn't mean they always are for long trips that require public charging stations. There's a lot of compromise and limitation and extra time that needs to be considered for that usage. And each potential buyer needs to factor that into their own situation.

you are right. I look at the $4 as simply a way to get a cheap charge if I need it. It cost more to get lunch at McDonald’s once a month then the $4. My comments are based on what my Tesla clients tell me and the research for two years into electric cars. They are the future. EA and others will start to get into the electric charger network. What exists today will change tomorrow. That is capitalism.