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I agree. And what I think is VERY interesting is the idea that a Tesla Model 3 might be considered a car while the Model Y would be a SUV. I think those two are the closest to identical models produced by anybody. They differ by so very little. I get that for sales purposes Tesla named their hatchback "SUV" just like Ford named the Mach-E hatchback "SUV" but will the folx (IRS, others) that provide the EV Tax Credit be so kind to go along with it? It will be very interesting, IMO particularly for Model 3 vs Model Y.
There really isn't any solid definition to SUV. The Tesla Model Y, Ford MME, and the Ford Edge are all called SUVs.
It doesn't matter to the IRS as long as it is an EV, built in North America and less than $55,000.
 

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My Model Y is registered here in NJ as an SUV. Mach Es are registered here as SUVs. The paranoia is silly, $80,000 limit applies. A much bigger problem is the source of battery raw materials for half of the credit. For example, 85% of lithium is processed in China, how can lithium mined from a free trade country be distinguished. The bill is a disaster.
 

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There really isn't any solid definition to SUV. The Tesla Model Y, Ford MME, and the Ford Edge are all called SUVs.
It doesn't matter to the IRS as long as it is an EV, built in North America and less than $55,000.
Exactly, if they are all under $55k then it does not matter, BUT if they want to be considered "SUVs" and then get associated higher MSRP to $80k that's another matter.
 

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My Model Y is registered here in NJ as an SUV. Mach Es are registered here as SUVs. The paranoia is silly, $80,000 limit applies. A much bigger problem is the source of battery raw materials for half of the credit. For example, 85% of lithium is processed in China, how can lithium mined from a free trade country be distinguished. The bill is a disaster.
If that is true about SUV category it is good news, Tesla will immediately change the Tesla Model 3 to become the "Tesla Model 3 SUV" and everyone will be even happier. I'm just super curious about Model 3 vs Model Y. They are nearly identical, so will they both be SUVs, or neither, or is just based upon (unlikely) the name the car maker gives them. Not sure if this is paranoia, for me at least, but more curiosity.

True the source of assembled parts for the battery, and so very true the raw materials/source of minerals for the battery are far more interesting since that goal is a big new one. To call the bill (law) a disaster, well the existing legislation was ending, so no incentives anymore might be less good. Also switching to a new version of the incentive, that prioritizes national security as well as climate and economic security of the USA, over the prior version, of twelve years just providing tax payer money to wealthy folks to buy expensive EVs. Might be an OK change.
 

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I agree. And what I think is VERY interesting is the idea that a Tesla Model 3 might be considered a car while the Model Y would be a SUV. I think those two are the closest to identical models produced by anybody. They differ by so very little. I get that for sales purposes Tesla named their hatchback "SUV" just like Ford named the Mach-E hatchback "SUV" but will the folx (IRS, others) that provide the EV Tax Credit be so kind to go along with it? It will be very interesting, IMO particularly for Model 3 vs Model Y.

I think this may be the answer:

The $80,000 price limit is for "Pick up trucks, vans and SUV's": I expect the IRS to issue regulations that to qualify the SUV must be based on a Pick up truck platform just as the van is. Vehicles like the Model Y, MACHE etc. which are based on a different platform will not quality.

Otherwise every luxury manufacturer will claim all their vehicles are SUV"s.

Keep in mind the income limitations: Adjusted Gross Income cap of $150,000 for individuals and $300,000 for married.

Just my $.02.
 

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I think this may be the answer:

The $80,000 price limit is for "Pick up trucks, vans and SUV's": I expect the IRS to issue regulations that to qualify the SUV must be based on a Pick up truck platform just as the van is. Vehicles like the Model Y, MACHE etc. which are based on a different platform will not quality.

Otherwise every luxury manufacturer will claim all their vehicles are SUV"s.

Keep in mind the income limitations: Adjusted Gross Income cap of $150,000 for individuals and $300,000 for married.

Just my $.02.
That is the most legitimate SUV definition, based on a Pickup truck platform. That's the "origin story" of SUVs. Yep. Oh, yes, the income limits are big too, only the bottom 95% of all Americans qualify starting Jan 1 2023. The top 5% were likely buying the most EVs in the last 12 years, not unlikely, not joking.
 

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That is the most legitimate SUV definition, based on a Pickup truck platform. That's the "origin story" of SUVs. Yep. Oh, yes, the income limits are big too, only the bottom 95% of all Americans qualify starting Jan 1 2023. The top 5% were likely buying the most EVs in the last 12 years, not unlikely, not joking.
I think you entirely correct: Only the top 5% have been buying Tesla. At least on this forum, most buyers seem to be north of 50 years and I suspect many will not be eligible because of the income cap for the Federal Tax Credit.

Just my opinion: having the income cap is a good thing: people earning that kind of money do not need a Federal Tax Rebate.

Again just my $.02.
 

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For crying out loud! Crossovers have been defined as SUVs forever. If you are so sure that the Mach E or the Model Y aren't qualified as SUVs in all jurisdictions, just don't bother filing for tax credit. I don't care.:rolleyes:
 

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For crying out loud! Crossovers have been defined as SUVs forever. If you are so sure that the Mach E or the Model Y aren't qualified as SUVs in all jurisdictions, just don't bother filing for tax credit. I don't care.:rolleyes:
Of course, when one files their tax return, they can elect to not fill out form 8936 for the Federal Tax Credit.

But for many the Federal Tax Credit of $7,500 may be one of the decisive reasons to get an EV.

I have searched the IRS code and the IRA and I cannot find out what qualifies as an SUV and what does not. IRS has not yet published what qualifies as an SUV for the $80,000 cap. Until that happens, we are only guessing.

Keep in mind that there are many purposes for the incentives for EV’s in the IRA:

  • Bring back to the US the making of batteries
  • Create affordable EV
  • Create more jobs in the US

With that in mind, the IRA set a MSRP limit of $55,000 for the Federal Tax Credit and income caps as well.

There is an exception to that $55,000 cap and that is for pickup trucks, vans and SUV’s. Vans are based on pick up trucks. Many SUVs likewise are based on pickup trucks.

Most CUV, crossovers and other vehicles that are called SUVs are not. So do not be surprised that the exception of the $55,000 will require a truck-based platform.

Query: Do you think a $56,000 Tesla Model 3 will not qualify but a $60,000 Model Y will qualify.
 

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Model Y (and Mach E) will qualify as an SUV, period. It is an SUV on my registration. It has virtually the same dimensions (except a few inches longer) as my previous SUV, the Audi Q5. This debate (and paranoia) is getting a bit old. :rolleyes:

If you don't agree, just don't file for the tax credit and be happy.
 

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Model Y (and Mach E) will qualify as an SUV, period. It is an SUV on my registration. It has virtually the same dimensions (except a few inches longer) as my previous SUV, the Audi Q5. This debate (and paranoia) is getting a bit old. :rolleyes:

If you don't agree, just don't file for the tax credit and be happy.
Really? Without verification from IRS.

The Model 3 is 185 inches long, the Model Y 187 inches: You think that IRS will call one a car subject to a cap of $55,000 and the other an SUV subject to a cap of $80,000?????

I do not think so!

Remember the IRA was to get affordable EV's into the market place for the average consumer and not a tax credit to rich people who buy expensive and limited production SUV's!

No paranoia, just prudence vs. hopeful, wishful and self interest thinking.

The IRS will come out with a list of qualifying SUV:

Better to be safe than sorry!

Just my $.02.
 

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You didn't notice that the Model Y is 8 inches taller (64 inches) than the Model 3, a difference that typically distinguishes SUVs from sedans? 64 inches is also the height of the Mach E. I still say paranoia.

You made me laugh when you used the phrase "expensive and limited production SUV's" when we are discussing the Model Y, on its way to becoming the best-selling car in the world, not just SUV's.
 

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You made me laugh when you used the phrase "expensive and limited production SUV's" when we are discussing the Model Y, on its way to becoming the best-selling car in the world, not just SUV's.


What you still do not get is that a $56,000 Model 3 will not qualify but using your analysis a $70,000 performance Model Y will.

That is not the intention of the IRA. I just do not see that happening.

Laughter is much better than paranoia.
 

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What you still do not get is that a $56,000 Model 3 will not qualify but using your analysis a $70,000 performance Model Y will.
YES! Model 3's with MSRPs over $55,000 will not get the 2023 credit. The Model 3 is clearly a sedan. Currently none will qualify because those under $55,000 have Chinese made CATL LFP batteries. All Model Y's with MSRPs under $80.000 WILL get the credit depending on the same battery issues as the Mach E.

Are you somehow asserting that the Mach E is an SUV and the Model Y is not, when they have similar specs and dimensions? I don't get your point here. They are both SUVs.
 

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YES! Model 3's with MSRPs over $55,000 will not get the 2023 credit. The Model 3 is clearly a sedan. Currently none will qualify because those under $55,000 have Chinese made CATL LFP batteries. All Model Y's with MSRPs under $80.000 WILL get the credit depending on the same battery issues as the Mach E.

Are you somehow asserting that the Mach E is an SUV and the Model Y is not, when they have similar specs and dimensions? I don't get your point here. They are both SUVs.
Couple of points for clarification:
  • The battery content requirement does not kick in until 2024: see; https://www.electrificationcoalition.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/SAFE_1-sheet_Webinar.pdf
  • I am not asserting that the MachE is an SUV and the Model Y is not: What I am suggesting to you is that based on the language of the IRA the $80,000 cap will apply to "Pickups, Vans and SUV's" and that neither the MachE over $55,000 nor the Model Y over $55,000 will qualify.
  • For purposes of the $80,000 cap we have yet to see what IRS determines a SUV to be. But a reasonable reading of the language in the IRA is that Vans that are based on a Pickup platform and those SUV's that are based on the pickup platform will be eligible for the $80,000 cap instead of the $55,000 cap.
  • If this is the interpretation by the IRS, then the MachE, the Model Y and all other crossover, not based on a pickup truck platform will have a MSRP cap of $55,000.
Again the incentives contained in the IRA are to encourage the production of:

  • EV in the United States
  • production of batteries in the United States
  • Making EV's affordable
The IRA with its limitations on people with MAGI of over $150,000 for individuals and married with over $300,000 and cap on MSRP of $55,000 is clearly aimed at making EV's affordable - not as a subsidy for expensive cross overs such as the Model Y or GT MachE.

Pickups and vans tend to used in business and/or commerce. Read in this light, SUV's that are used in commerce, such as Suburbans, Tahoes, etc, which are based on a pickup platform also would be included in the $80,000 cap.

The fact that your registration for you Model Y is an "SUV" has no bearing whatsoever on the IRS in determining the MSRP cap. Until IRS issues its regulations we are all in the dark.

But do not be surprised that EV crossovers, not based on a truck platform will be subject to the $55,000 cap.
 

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YES! Model 3's with MSRPs over $55,000 will not get the 2023 credit. The Model 3 is clearly a sedan. Currently none will qualify because those under $55,000 have Chinese made CATL LFP batteries. All Model Y's with MSRPs under $80.000 WILL get the credit depending on the same battery issues as the Mach E.

Are you somehow asserting that the Mach E is an SUV and the Model Y is not, when they have similar specs and dimensions? I don't get your point here. They are both SUVs.
IMO
You predict the Model Y and Mach-E will be in the same category and it will be SUV. Sounds reasonable as a prediction.
JTK predicts the Model Y and Mach-E will be in the same category and it will not be SUV. That's reasonable as a prediction.
I predict the Model Y and Mach-E will be in the same category and either you or JTK will be correct. I don't know.
Seems unlikely the Model Y and Mach-E will not be in the same category, but I guess it is possible.

I prefer comparing the Model 3 to the Model Y. They are essentially the exact same car in so many ways but one is a hatchback with a bit more storage space. (Edit: They are more similar to two trims of the same car). Most people cannot even tell the difference when staring at one. They may be more alike than even the Bolt EV vs Bolt EUV. Guess those two are a similar situation.

I'm just curious what aspects of the vehicle will be in the definition that make it an SUV but the nearly identical sibling Model 3 not so: height, weight, hatchback vs trunk... but they will seek to draw a line somewhere, lol.
 

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YES! Model 3's with MSRPs over $55,000 will not get the 2023 credit. The Model 3 is clearly a sedan. Currently none will qualify because those under $55,000 have Chinese made CATL LFP batteries. All Model Y's with MSRPs under $80.000 WILL get the credit depending on the same battery issues as the Mach E.

Are you somehow asserting that the Mach E is an SUV and the Model Y is not, when they have similar specs and dimensions? I don't get your point here. They are both SUVs.
Just happened to check the Ford.com website:

The MachE is listed under "SUVS and Crossovers":

Listed are the Expedition and Explorer which I think we can agree is an SUV. Also listed is EcoSport which I think we can agree is not a SUV but a crossover.

I agree with DougL that the MachE and the Model Y should be classified the same.

see: https://www.ford.com/suvs/mach-e/?gnav=header-electrified-vhp
 

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...I prefer comparing the Model 3 to the Model Y. They are essentially the exact same car in so many ways but one is a hatchback with a bit more storage space. (Edit: They are more similar to two trims of the same car). Most people cannot even tell the difference when staring at one.,,
If you sever saw them side by side, you would not assert that nonsense.
 

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If you sever saw them side by side, you would not assert that nonsense.
I agree that if you see the Model 3 and Model Y side by side it is easy to tell that one is taller BUT if they are not side by side, specifically if a Model Y is in the grocery store parking lot between a Denali and a VW bettle, it is very difficult to determine if it is a Model 3 or Model Y, even for the very very few people who know them well. They are essentially just different trims of the same car.
 
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