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I just did a quick PROS list of the Mustang Mach-E & the Tesla Model Y.
(I tried to make the list about things that one car specifically has over the other.)

Am I missing anything?
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I don't know if its fair to say the Y has a better safety rating, when the Mach-E has no safety rating yet.

Otherwise everything else is still going to be subjective. For example, the expansive Ford dealer service network is a plus for me, over the current Tesla service centers.
 

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I just did a quick PROS list of the Mustang Mach-E & the Tesla Model Y.
(I tried to make the list about things that one car specifically has over the other.)

Am I missing anything? View attachment 2100
Hi bpmajesty,

Just my take on your list:
Current fact 🟢 1 pt
Not yet official 🟡 1/2 pt
Untested/unknown/incorrect 🔴 0 pt

Subjective 🔵 1/2 pt

Model Y AWD/LR:
  • longer range, by 10 miles (280 vs 270), based on your 20” tire choice and Ford EPA estimates.🟡
  • available quicker 🟢
  • cheaper lease payments 🟡
  • better charging network 🟢
  • better looking rear 🔵
  • higher safety rating- untested 🔴
  • Faster 0-60 🟡
  • Current EV stadard 🔴 incorrect, CCS is EV standard, Tesla is proprietary.
  • 20” wheels 🔵
  • Technology 🟢
  • Total: 5.5 points.
Mustang Mach-E AWD/ER (changed to ER for more direct comparison):

  • better looking front 🔵
  • better torque 🟡
  • handling - untested 🔴
  • better interior 🔵
  • better rear-view 🟢
  • cheaper with AWD 🔴 incorrect-not with comparable ER option.
  • qualifies for tax credit 🟢
  • Carplay support 🟢
  • build quality 🟢
  • service network 🟢
  • driver cluster display 🟢
  • Total: 7.5 points
So, they are very close. As official specifications, financing options, and testing results are released, the scores will change.

Lists like this come in handy, especially if you take both for a test drive and there is no clear winner in your eyes.
 

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The biggest thing I don't like about the model Y is the missing cluster on the dash and I really don't like the aesthetics of the front of the car. I agree I think the rear looks better than the Mach E but I like the fact that it's a mustang and there are lots of Ford dealers that would be available if an issue came up. I also am hopeful that the build quality will be much better with Ford because they have a lot riding on producing a really good car. With the tax credit the cars are basically similar in price.
 

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It's premature to come up with this list, particularly since all the MME numbers are "targets". Without "hard" numbers, many of your objective factors are invalid. There is also a lot of subjectivity in there, including the federal tax credit - because WITH the tax credit the cars come out to the same price, but you'll have to wait to get your $7500 back. You are also missing the subjective value of Ford's dealers, although it is hard to say if their mechanics will be any better than their sales reps. For Tesla, the QC has been horrendous on the MY.

While I am a "numbers" guy there is no way to make a scoresheet that applies to all, and this point I'm not sure you can even make one that applies just to you..
 

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It's premature to come up with this list, particularly since all the MME numbers are "targets". Without "hard" numbers, many of your objective factors are invalid. There is also a lot of subjectivity in there, including the federal tax credit - because WITH the tax credit the cars come out to the same price, but you'll have to wait to get your $7500 back. You are also missing the subjective value of Ford's dealers, although it is hard to say if their mechanics will be any better than their sales reps. For Tesla, the QC has been horrendous on the MY.

While I am a "numbers" guy there is no way to make a scoresheet that applies to all, and this point I'm not sure you can even make one that applies just to you..
Agree. Once specs are official, it will be easier to make pros-and-cons lists, which are good aids in decision making. The contents of each persons list are subjective, including which feature/spec are more important to the individual (therefore which will have a higher ‘score’).

But, hey, we have to somehow keep ourselves entertained for the next three-to-four months. Can’t hurt to think about what is important to you for when it comes time to evaluate.
 

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A couple of items:

Price: The Model Y MSRP is $49,990 plus destination charge of $1,200 total $51,190. The Premium LR AWD with destination charges is $58,800 less Federal Tax Credit of $7,500, total $51,300. My calculations indicate that the MachE is not cheaper than the Model Y. For all practical purposes they cars are the same price.

Styling: styling is so subjective and personal so giving points and breaking it down to front, side and rear is, at least to me, is silly.

Interior: I think we can all agree that having two screens, some knobs is better than one screen! Some may call the Model Y modern: I call it cheap looking!

Wheels: Both the Model Y and the MachE are carrying a lot of weight around: those batteries are really heavy. Every report I have read about the performance Model Y is that the ride is overly harsh - which is to be expected when you go from 19 inch wheels to 21 inch wheels. Personally I would go to the smallest not largest wheels. The minimal handling advantage of 21" vs. 19" is not worth the harshness in ride.

Charging stations: I believe there have been many articles that find that 80% of charging is done at home. Of course if you do not have a private home with a garage, then charging at home would be impossible. So if 80% is done at home, charging stations are not as important as they might at first seem to be. In any event, at the present time Tesla charging network is the gold standard. IMO, within a few years, charging stations will be everywhere and the government will mandate that their be a universal standard.

No one wants to go through what we did with VCR - Beta or VHS! So I think we will have a universal standard port for charging.

Handling: As no one other than the Ford engineers have driven the MachE, if think it is better to wait to see which car, the Model Y or the MachE handles better. Tesla has set a very high bar for handling. If the MachE matches the Model Y's handling, I will be satisfied.

Performance and top speed: The fastest I have ever driven was 130 mph and that was nearly 20 years ago! The MachE governed top speed of under 120 mph is more than sufficient for me, so the the top speed of the Modely Y 135 mph is totally irrelevant. The 0-60 time of the Model Y is 4.8 seconds. I presently have a Mercedes E450 with a 0-60 time of 5 seconds. The projected MachE time of 5 seconds to 5 1/2 seconds, like the top speed is more than sufficient.

Leasing: with only first month and acquisition fee at signing, $1,328 and no money down, the monthly payment on the Model Y is $633 per month. Some states waive taxes on EV's. NY does not. The NY State taxes are $1,966, total amount $26,082. The monthly payment for the Premium AWD LR, as per the Ford option plan, with $7,500 down, the amount of the Federal Tax Credit, is $801, tax in NY State $5,071 plus acquisition fee if any, total is $33,907. This gives the Model Y an advantage of $7,825. On a 36 month lease, the Model Y is $217 a month less than the Premium.

Build quality: Unless Tesla, between now and when the MachE is delivered improves their build quality, the MachE, even though it is first year of production, should have a better build quality than the Model Y.


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Charging stations: ...IMO, within a few years, charging stations will be everywhere and the government will mandate that their be a universal standard.

Leasing: ...On a 36 month lease, the Model Y is $217 a month less than the Premium...
On Charging Stations: The EU have already required all charging stations to include CCS type-2 or combo-2 connectors on their charging stations, this includes Tesla (they still have their proprietary supercharger connector, too). You think the US Gov’t will require every company to do the same here?

On Leases: this is if Ford doesn’t modify the terms of the Ford Options plan, or offer a true lease.

We need Ford to release some more MMe tid-bits. Its going to be a long 16 weeks.
 

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The biggest thing I don't like about the model Y is the missing cluster on the dash and I really don't like the aesthetics of the front of the car. I agree I think the rear looks better than the Mach E but I like the fact that it's a mustang and there are lots of Ford dealers that would be available if an issue came up. I also am hopeful that the build quality will be much better with Ford because they have a lot riding on producing a really good car. With the tax credit the cars are basically similar in price.
Ditto for me- That missing dash is a mistake IMO. And the second clincher is Autopilot. I don't want the car to steer itself in order for me to benefit from the advanced safety features like blindspot detection, lane change warnings and adaptive cruise control. With MME I have all those goodies while I keep control of the vehicle, which I find a lot less stressful
 

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On Charging Stations: The EU have already required all charging stations to include CCS type-2 or combo-2 connectors on their charging stations, this includes Tesla (they still have their proprietary supercharger connector, too). You think the US Gov’t will require every company to do the same here?
Not to get political, to me that would be a proper governmental function. I am all for it!

On Leases: this is if Ford doesn’t modify the terms of the Ford Options plan, or offer a true lease.
The problem with a "true lease" is that the Federal Tax credit goes to the leasor, as title holder, and not to the lessee. The capturing of the Federal Tax credit by Tesla, and not passing any part of it on to the lessee, is what made the leases on both the Model S and X so expensive as compared to other similarly priced cars.

The problem with the Ford Option plan is not the MF, presently 2.5%, but the balloon aka "residual" being 44%. Until Ford addresses the residual, the monthly payments on the Ford Option Plan are not competitive with other similarly priced cars.



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Hi bpmajesty,

Just my take on your list:
Current fact 🟢 1 pt
Not yet official 🟡 1/2 pt
Untested/unknown/incorrect 🔴 0 pt

Subjective 🔵 1/2 pt

Model Y AWD/LR:
  • longer range, by 10 miles (280 vs 270), based on your 20” tire choice and Ford EPA estimates.🟡
  • available quicker 🟢
  • cheaper lease payments 🟡
  • better charging network 🟢
  • better looking rear 🔵
  • higher safety rating- untested 🔴
  • Faster 0-60 🟡
  • Current EV stadard 🔴 incorrect, CCS is EV standard, Tesla is proprietary.
  • 20” wheels 🔵
  • Technology 🟢
  • Total: 5.5 points.
Mustang Mach-E AWD/ER (changed to ER for more direct comparison):

  • better looking front 🔵
  • better torque 🟡
  • handling - untested 🔴
  • better interior 🔵
  • better rear-view 🟢
  • cheaper with AWD 🔴 incorrect-not with comparable ER option.
  • qualifies for tax credit 🟢
  • Carplay support 🟢
  • build quality 🟢
  • service network 🟢
  • driver cluster display 🟢
  • Total: 7.5 points
So, they are very close. As official specifications, financing options, and testing results are released, the scores will change.

Lists like this come in handy, especially if you take both for a test drive and there is no clear winner in your eyes.
The Model Y front reminds me of Donald Duck. I just can't shake it.
 

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Ditto for me- That missing dash is a mistake IMO. And the second clincher is Autopilot. I don't want the car to steer itself in order for me to benefit from the advanced safety features like blindspot detection, lane change warnings and adaptive cruise control. With MME I have all those goodies while I keep control of the vehicle, which I find a lot less stressful
On both my Ford Edge Sport and my Mercedes, the driver assist package permits me to take my hands off the wheel for up to 1 minute. To activate I must engage cruise control

Both cars follow the car in front of them varying the speed to keep a preset distance. If the car in front comes to a stop both cars stop. When the car in front re-starts so does my Edge and Mercedes. However after 1 minute my Mercedes reminds me to "touch" my steering wheel. If I fail to, the car slows down and when safe pulls over to the shoulder and and comes to a stop.

Blind spot assist, lane assist, cross traffic and backup assist are active even if I have not turned on cruise control.

Are you sure that the Tesla does not operate the same way?

I have seen hundred of videos of both the Model 3 and Y, with auto pilot but without "Full self driving capability", where the driver takes his hands off the wheel and the Tesla continues to drive, within the lane lines and varies it speed to keep a present distance between the car in front. If the car in front stops so does the Tesla. When the car in front re-starts so does the Tesla. All of this is done without the driver touching the steering wheel.


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Watched this guys video on Model Y issues. I would never pay this much for a car and accept stuff like this. I don’t care if the damn thing can fly. Yeah, I am excited and want a BEV that is high tech, but not at the expense of these kinds of headaches.
 

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On both my Ford Edge Sport and my Mercedes, the driver assist package permits me to take my hands off the wheel for up to 1 minute. To activate I must engage cruise control

Both cars follow the car in front of them varying the speed to keep a preset distance. If the car in front comes to a stop both cars stop. When the car in front re-starts so does my Edge and Mercedes. However after 1 minute my Mercedes reminds me to "touch" my steering wheel. If I fail to, the car slows down and when safe pulls over to the shoulder and and comes to a stop.

Blind spot assist, lane assist, cross traffic and backup assist are active even if I have not turned on cruise control.

Are you sure that the Tesla does not operate the same way?

I have seen hundred of videos of both the Model 3 and Y, with auto pilot but without "Full self driving capability", where the driver takes his hands off the wheel and the Tesla continues to drive, within the lane lines and varies it speed to keep a present distance between the car in front. If the car in front stops so does the Tesla. When the car in front re-starts so does the Tesla. All of this is done without the driver touching the steering wheel.
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All the CoPilot 360 features work similar to the edge, just newer versions. Plus the additional features just added. The upcoming Active Driver Assist is truly hands-free, because it uses an infrared camera to monitor driver alertness.

According to the manual, Tesla Autopilot and FSD require the driver to have their ‘hands on the wheel at all times.’ It uses a torque sensor in the steering wheel to monitor driver alertness (similar to the systems in your Edge and Mercedes).
However, touching the steering wheel every so often keeps the system active. If not, the ‘nag’ goes off and it will disengage if they don’t touch the wheel. The videos you see are drivers abusing the system.

I have seen in a couple of posts around the ‘net that Tesla’s lane-keeping system and equivalent blind-spot assist are not active unless autopilot is engaged. I don’t know if that’s accurate, we need someone more Tesla-savvy.
 

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All the CoPilot 360 features work similar to the edge, just newer versions. Plus the additional features just added. The upcoming Active Driver Assist is truly hands-free, because it uses an infrared camera to monitor driver alertness.

According to the manual, Tesla Autopilot and FSD require the driver to have their ‘hands on the wheel at all times.’ It uses a torque sensor in the steering wheel to monitor driver alertness (similar to the systems in your Edge and Mercedes).
However, touching the steering wheel every so often keeps the system active. If not, the ‘nag’ goes off and it will disengage if they don’t touch the wheel. The videos you see are drivers abusing the system.

I have seen in a couple of posts around the ‘net that Tesla’s lane-keeping system and equivalent blind-spot assist are not active unless autopilot is engaged. I don’t know if that’s accurate, we need someone more Tesla-savvy.
I suspect you may both be correct. In the past, the driver didn't need to touch the wheel, but that appears to have been changed for safety reasons. My observations are from driving a rented Model S, and from what I could glean off the net.
 

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Watched this guys video on Model Y issues. I would never pay this much for a car and accept stuff like this. I don’t care if the damn thing can fly. Yeah, I am excited and want a BEV that is high tech, but not at the expense of these kinds of headaches.
Thanks so much for posting:

I have been driving since the 1959 so I have long memories: Can anyone say:

  • Lucus
  • Yugo
I have several relatives and friends who keep saying Tesla has "growing pains:"

Give me a break: After 17 years and over 500,000 vehicles they deliver cars with frunks that do not close, headlights that do not work, seats that do not align, paint that peels off.

On my last 7 to 10 cars, other than routine oil changes, I have had to bring in my cars maybe total of 4 or 5 times, each for less than 3 hours for a minor fix, the exception being the automatic high beam on my Mercedes where the part had to flown in from Germany - but I could still operate the lights manually.

This is not some cheap Indian or Chinese car for $10,000. It is a $50,000 car!

But as long as there are Telsa fanatics out there who will accept these shoddy cars, spend 3 to 5 trips having repairs done and then still say this is the "Best Car I have ever owned" why should Tesla change?

GM, Ford and Chrysler built their cars on planed obsolescence: They did not change until forced to by Toyota and Honda.

I feel Tesla is the same. Until there is competition Tesla will have problems with the QC.

Sorry for the rant, just my $.02.


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Thanks so much for posting:

I have been driving since the 1959 so I have long memories: Can anyone say:

  • Lucus
  • Yugo
I have several relatives and friends who keep saying Tesla has "growing pains:"

Give me a break: After 17 years and over 500,000 vehicles they deliver cars with frunks that do not close, headlights that do not work, seats that do not align, paint that peels off.

On my last 7 to 10 cars, other than routine oil changes, I have had to bring in my cars maybe total of 4 or 5 times, each for less than 3 hours for a minor fix, the exception being the automatic high beam on my Mercedes where the part had to flown in from Germany - but I could still operate the lights manually.

This is not some cheap Indian or Chinese car for $10,000. It is a $50,000 car!

But as long as there are Telsa fanatics out there who will accept these shoddy cars, spend 3 to 5 trips having repairs done and then still say this is the "Best Car I have ever owned" why should Tesla change?

GM, Ford and Chrysler built their cars on planed obsolescence: They did not change until forced to by Toyota and Honda.

I feel Tesla is the same. Until there is competition Tesla will have problems with the QC.

Sorry for the rant, just my $.02.


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You said it all.
 
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On Charging Stations: The EU have already required all charging stations to include CCS type-2 or combo-2 connectors on their charging stations, this includes Tesla (they still have their proprietary supercharger connector, too). You think the US Gov’t will require every company to do the same here?
Even if the government mandates a single connector (and that is unlikely at this point IMHO), that doesn't mean Tesla has to allow everyone to charge at their superchargers. Without an account you can't charge, and as a private company Tesla can decide not to give accounts to those who bought non-Tesla cars.

On Leases: this is if Ford doesn’t modify the terms of the Ford Options plan, or offer a true lease.
THIS IS CRITICAL. Ford's option rates are ridiculous; it's the prime reason I am even considering a Tesla at this point, and am in fact leaning in that direction.

We need Ford to release some more MMe tid-bits. Its going to be a long 16 weeks.
This is the second reason I am leaning toward Tesla as a known quantity. The Ken Block Hooning video was cute, but useless for evaluating a production car. Still no hard numbers on efficiency and performance, no discussions with third parties who've driven the prototypes, only vague details on the charging (no rates nor mention of networks other than EA), etc. At the rate they're going I will have to finalize and commit to my order sight unseen with little real data and a much higher "leasing" cost; that's an untenable position IMO.
 
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