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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Now that the professional reviews are coming out I’m starting to have doubts that the standard battery pack AWD will give a real 210 mile range. One of the reviewers said the larger battery pack with a 270 range on paper was showing 220 in cold weather. Has anyone calculated the worst case scenario? If we’re to keep the battery between 10% and 90% that means my 210 range is already reduced to 168. If you shave off another 20% for cold weather I’m down to 134 miles.

I’m interested in any other calculations... thanks
 

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Now that the professional reviews are coming out I’m starting to have doubts that the standard battery pack AWD will give a real 210 mile range. One of the reviewers said the larger battery pack with a 270 range on paper was showing 220 in cold weather. Has anyone calculated the worst case scenario? If we’re to keep the battery between 10% and 90% that means my 210 range is already reduced to 168. If you shave off another 20% for cold weather I’m down to 134 miles.

I’m interested in any other calculations... thanks
First I believe the range of 210 is with the battery at 90% - which takes into account the buffer:

I am still a bit confused: the battery is rated at 98 KW, 88 KW usable, the 10 KW is the buffer. I believe the range of 210 miles is based on 88 KW not the 98 KW. I also suspect that as Ford gets more data, more of the buffer will be used and the range will increase. This is what Tesla has done to increase the range with OTA updates.

Winter driving: based on Tesla you can expect a 30% decrease in range when temps fall below freezing. This is due to both the efficiency of the battery that decreases with cold and the drain on the battery to supply heat: to the interior, seats and windshield. Also remember that as speed increases, range decreases.

So to answer you question: In cold weather I think you are correct the range of 210 will decrease 30% to about 140/150 miles, but the range in normal conditions should be about 210 miles.
 

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First I believe the range of 210 is with the battery at 90% - which takes into account the buffer:

I am still a bit confused: the battery is rated at 98 KW, 88 KW usable, the 10 KW is the buffer. I believe the range of 210 miles is based on 88 KW not the 98 KW. I also suspect that as Ford gets more data, more of the buffer will be used and the range will increase. This is what Tesla has done to increase the range with OTA updates.

Winter driving: based on Tesla you can expect a 30% decrease in range when temps fall below freezing. This is due to both the efficiency of the battery that decreases with cold and the drain on the battery to supply heat: to the interior, seats and windshield. Also remember that as speed increases, range decreases.

So to answer you question: In cold weather I think you are correct the range of 210 will decrease 30% to about 140/150 miles, but the range in normal conditions should be about 210 miles.
The 10KW holdback is to prevent overcharge/full charge. For battery longevity you'll want to plug in ell before it gets to empty. Max daily use case of ~1/2 full range is a safe, conservative estimate for expected range and battery longevity.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
First I believe the range of 210 is with the battery at 90% - which takes into account the buffer:

I am still a bit confused: the battery is rated at 98 KW, 88 KW usable, the 10 KW is the buffer. I believe the range of 210 miles is based on 88 KW not the 98 KW. I also suspect that as Ford gets more data, more of the buffer will be used and the range will increase. This is what Tesla has done to increase the range with OTA updates.

Winter driving: based on Tesla you can expect a 30% decrease in range when temps fall below freezing. This is due to both the efficiency of the battery that decreases with cold and the drain on the battery to supply heat: to the interior, seats and windshield. Also remember that as speed increases, range decreases.

So to answer you question: In cold weather I think you are correct the range of 210 will decrease 30% to about 140/150 miles, but the range in normal conditions should be about 210 miles.
That helps. I’m just not clear on what the realistic expectation should be for range. For example, if you purchase the “210” range model, what number would you use for a road trip between charges assuming moderate weather?
 

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The 10KW holdback is to prevent overcharge/full charge. For battery longevity you'll want to plug in ell before it gets to empty. Max daily use case of ~1/2 full range is a safe, conservative estimate for expected range and battery longevity.
That helps. I’m just not clear on what the realistic expectation should be for range. For example, if you purchase the “210” range model, what number would you use for a road trip between charges assuming moderate weather?
First, I would not use the MME for road trips: the charging infrastructure for the MME is not yet robust enough. If you check the posts, most are finding that the charging stations are few and far between and very few have operational supercharging; most are L2 which is between 30 and 50 miles per hour.

I have been rethinking my FE, range of 270 miles vs. Premium Sr RWD of 230 miles vs. Premium AWD SR 210 miles.

Because the charging stations, at the present time are not robust, taking long trips is problematic at best.

I then asked myself is AWD necessary? We have an AWD Ford Edge Sport: I live on LI and the number of days (snow) where I need AWD are decreasing.

My conclusion has been that the RWD SR Premium, with 230 miles is probably best.

To answer your question: with 210 miles, you probably want a safety of 30 miles, which brings you down to 180. Remember that 180 miles is with stop and go and regenerative braking which adds to the mileage. On a road trip, you will lose that mileage due to regenerative braking. So that is another 20 miles so you are down to 160. That 160 is calculated at 50 mph at 50 degrees. Higher temperatures you run the AC, loss of another 15 miles. Cooler temperature, lose another 20 miles. Speeds above 55, lose another 20 to 30 miles.

When you do the above calculations, and the lack of a robust charging infrastructure, I have come to the conclusion that the MME is not suitable for long trips. I intend to use our Ford Edge for trips.
 

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Typical Temperature Efficiency of 2019 Tesla Model 3 in California. The electric heater (no heat pump uses like 4 kw of power, but on the bright side, the heat comes on immediately. The Mach-E should be similar.
3471
 

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First, I would not use the MME for road trips.
For many road trips... If one does the math, it's cheaper to rent a car. Particularly if it's over a long weekend where a 3~4 day unlimited miles rental would do. The US government rate for business travel is $0.575/mile. Even at less than half of that.... say $0.25/mile (because you can't pause things like insurance or registration costs and you would still have to pay for gasoline), a 1,000 mile weekend road trip is taking $250 value off of your car.

Of course it all depends on each individual case.... Like if the road trip is done on a 10 year old car with 150K miles on it... (ain't taking $250 off the value of that car).
 

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My 2017 Bolt was designed to have about this same 210 mile range. I too was anxious at first. In reality, in the summer I get over 250 miles in the city and about 185 on the highway (with cruise set at 77mph). In the cold Michigan winter, I refuse to be uncomfortable. I set the the heater at 70degrees and drive mostly highway (I live in Ann Arbor and work in Toledo). I get ~160 miles, wile driving in winter comfort at 77 mph. Only once, when I tried to squeeze 2 winter round trips (AA to Toledo) did I get worried (so I drove the speed limit and dialed the heater back to 65). My point is, don’t worry. You’ll quickly learn how to squeeze extra miles out if/when you need them (which will be almost never), simply by adjusting your driving habits. Enjoy it!
 

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That helps. I’m just not clear on what the realistic expectation should be for range. For example, if you purchase the “210” range model, what number would you use for a road trip between charges assuming moderate weather?
Current map of Electrify America charging stations. Unless you live in the Dakotas, Montana, or Wyoming, it works pretty well...
eamap.jpg

3474
 

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Current map of Electrify America charging stations. Unless you live in the Dakotas, Montana, or Wyoming, it works pretty well... View attachment 3474
View attachment 3474

Of course!

I do not have an EV so I cannot verify, but numerous postings on both this forum and macheclub.com state that:

  • Many stations shown are planned not operational
  • Operational stations are L2 and not supercharging
  • Many stations listed as "operational" are in fact not - they are down for "repair"
  • At the stations instead of 6 chargers operational, only one is in fact operational
Tesla presently has over 2,000 supercharging stations with over 20,000 superchargers in operation.

see: Supercharger | Tesla
 

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Of course!

I do not have an EV so I cannot verify, but numerous postings on both this forum and macheclub.com state that:

  • Many stations shown are planned not operational
  • Operational stations are L2 and not supercharging
  • Many stations listed as "operational" are in fact not - they are down for "repair"
  • At the stations instead of 6 chargers operational, only one is in fact operational
Tesla presently has over 2,000 supercharging stations with over 20,000 superchargers in operation.

see: Supercharger | Tesla
There's no question Tesla is ahead, so the only question is whether Ford's network is good enough. As a non-Tesla EV owner today you certainly have to put a bit more effort into research (i.e. ABRP and checking status of planned stops) but that's the price one pays to be at the bleeding edge.
 

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I do not have an EV so I cannot verify, but numerous postings on both this forum and macheclub.com state that:

  • Many stations shown are planned not operational
  • Operational stations are L2 and not supercharging
  • Many stations listed as "operational" are in fact not - they are down for "repair"
  • At the stations instead of 6 chargers operational, only one is in fact operational
Tesla presently has over 2,000 supercharging stations with over 20,000 superchargers in operation.
Within 8 miles I have access to a Tesla Super Charger and an Electrify America DC fast charge station each with 8 chargers or at least with 8 car parking slots. I have rarely seen more than one car using either of the chargers. I can't verify if they were working but if you have either the EA app and are a member, or have the Ford pass app, it will give you real time information on charger status and the number of available chargers. If a DC fast charge is not included in the Ford Pass and is networked you need that networks app. If the charger is not networked you are SOL in getting information on status. That is what I have gleaned from my reading, but have not had an EV to be able to verify.
 

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There's no question Tesla is ahead, so the only question is whether Ford's network is good enough. As a non-Tesla EV owner today you certainly have to put a bit more effort into research (i.e. ABRP and checking status of planned stops) but that's the price one pays to be at the bleeding edge.
We are 10 years into EV's by Tesla. In a Tesla you can comfortable make journeys and you do not have to plan your trip around charging stations.

Ford is late to the game and they should be doing everything possible to provide charging stations and not farm it out to third parties, as they have done: so I wonder if we can correctly state that Ford is at the "bleeding edge".

People have correctly criticized Tesla for their lack of quality control. Let's be fair and also criticize OEM, including Ford, for building EV's but not building out a charging infrastructure to support them.

Finally, as a fall back, you can buy an adapter to use the L2, but not the supercharging, Tesla charging stations. How you pay for it is another story.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
There's no question Tesla is ahead, so the only question is whether Ford's network is good enough. As a non-Tesla EV owner today you certainly have to put a bit more effort into research (i.e. ABRP and checking status of planned stops) but that's the price one pays to be at the bleeding edge.
Great point on bleeding edge. I’m happy to be an early adopter and accept the consequences I just wish the EPA range estimates were more clear.
 

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Ford is late to the game and they should be doing everything possible to provide charging stations and not farm it out to third parties, as they have done: so I wonder if we can correctly state that Ford is at the "bleeding edge".
All the legacy automakers are late to the game. Ford is the first outside of premium/performance brands to offer more than a compliance care though.

I don't think it's Ford's job to be building charging infrastructure. It's not like you see Ford branded gas stations with special Ford-only nozzles. Tesla went that route to make their product viable before third parties existed or cared, for which they deserve credit and respect, but we need to move beyond proprietary networks if BEVs are going to become mainstream.
 

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Of course!

I do not have an EV so I cannot verify, but numerous postings on both this forum and macheclub.com state that:

  • Many stations shown are planned not operational
  • Operational stations are L2 and not supercharging
  • Many stations listed as "operational" are in fact not - they are down for "repair"
  • At the stations instead of 6 chargers operational, only one is in fact operational
Tesla presently has over 2,000 supercharging stations with over 20,000 superchargers in operation.

see: Supercharger | Tesla
I really don't know. I have been to four or five different locations. They all worked.

A year ago, one time, I had to call the 800 number for EA. They answered immediately, and the polite young lady remotely rebooted the station (it was Windows ;)), and it worked then, no problem, other than the extra ten minutes that I wasted calling.

My personal experience is that they work fine. They are merely giant charging stations: 3-phase electricity modulated by billing software and a big rectifier. It's not rocket science.

But there are a lot of them, and I've only experienced a few. So wtfdik?
 

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Of course!

I do not have an EV so I cannot verify, but numerous postings on both this forum and macheclub.com state that:

  • Many stations shown are planned not operational
  • Operational stations are L2 and not supercharging
  • Many stations listed as "operational" are in fact not - they are down for "repair"
  • At the stations instead of 6 chargers operational, only one is in fact operational
Tesla presently has over 2,000 supercharging stations with over 20,000 superchargers in operation.

see: Supercharger | Tesla
I should note, also, that reading forums, as opposed to actually using them, will give you a possibly unbalanced view, because people report the one failure, not the 100 instances where they simply plugged in, added miles, and drove away. No offense, but you see the point, I'm sure.
 

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Within 8 miles I have access to a Tesla Super Charger and an Electrify America DC fast charge station each with 8 chargers or at least with 8 car parking slots. I have rarely seen more than one car using either of the chargers. I can't verify if they were working but if you have either the EA app and are a member, or have the Ford pass app, it will give you real time information on charger status and the number of available chargers. If a DC fast charge is not included in the Ford Pass and is networked you need that networks app. If the charger is not networked you are SOL in getting information on status. That is what I have gleaned from my reading, but have not had an EV to be able to verify.
I basically agree, but note that all chargers are, by definition, networked. They have to have a web connection to verify billing. So someone, somewhere, knows their status.

That doesn't mean, of course, that, you, the driver, knows the status. But they are networked.

I know that I'm being picky, but all DCFC are on the grid and in the cloud.
 

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I basically agree, but note that all chargers are, by definition, networked. They have to have a web connection to verify billing. So someone, somewhere, knows their status.

That doesn't mean, of course, that, you, the driver, knows the status. But they are networked.

I know that I'm being picky, but all DCFC are on the grid and in the cloud.
Except for the ones that are free to use, right? Like at Nissan dealerships for instance.
 

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We are 10 years into EV's by Tesla. In a Tesla you can comfortable make journeys and you do not have to plan your trip around charging stations.

Ford is late to the game and they should be doing everything possible to provide charging stations and not farm it out to third parties, as they have done: so I wonder if we can correctly state that Ford is at the "bleeding edge".

People have correctly criticized Tesla for their lack of quality control. Let's be fair and also criticize OEM, including Ford, for building EV's but not building out a charging infrastructure to support them.

Finally, as a fall back, you can buy an adapter to use the L2, but not the supercharging, Tesla charging stations. How you pay for it is another story.
Good point. I have long held that if Ford (and Chevy and FCA) would all simply put a couple of DC Fast chargers at every dealership, for maybe a total cost of $10k per year for ten years, it would almost overnight dramatically improve the charging network. Not only would the numbers be impressive, they would be in a lot of small towns, and not just on major highways. It would represent geographical diversification.

Most of the dealerships probably already have 3 phase (for welding and other uses), they are located on major streets, and they have ample parking. They are basically ideal locations.

I'm assuming that they think, "Well, it's not our job to provide that service."

Which is, I think, very short-sighted of them.
 
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