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Discussion Starter #1
Powerpack price reduction?
Bringing battery production in house?

Lot of sizzle so far.... will there be steak?
 

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Powerpack price reduction?
Bringing battery production in house?

Lot of sizzle so far.... will there be steak?
Now they're leaking that it may be 2022 before the 'super duper' batteries are in full production.
 

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If you are interested, just go to YouTube and browse the battery day information on the new batteries, including production methods of the batteries from raw materials to car structure. Musk outlined plans to bring costs and weight of battery packs down by over 50% and a method of using the batteries as part of a honeycomb structure of the center of the cars. His 2 to 3 year initial timeline includes building factories and tooling to begin volume production. He has a prototype production line for the new batteries in Fremont. The changes are dramatic and are aimed at ramping up production of cars and trucks dramatically.

During the ramp up of production he will still be using current technology batteries, made in house and with CATL in Shanghai and LG and the Panasonic partnership. Iron phosphate batteries in China, Nickel manganese batteries, and low nickel batteries in the US, all with incremental improvements. The initial use of the new battery production will be foe the Cyber Truck and the Semi at the Austin Texas plant - they need the weight and range improvements the most.

It's a long term plan that cannot be built in a day. The rest of the industry beware.
 

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no "million mile battery", and no stunning new chemistry (solid state or otherwise). As mentioned, the new Battery is a repackaging of existing chemistries, although a new design allows them to be made larger and packed together differently (coolant on bottom instead of tiny tubes between battery cylinders). Improvements but not revolutionary quantum leaps.
 

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no "million mile battery", and no stunning new chemistry (solid state or otherwise). As mentioned, the new Battery is a repackaging of existing chemistries, although a new design allows them to be made larger and packed together differently (coolant on bottom instead of tiny tubes between battery cylinders). Improvements but not revolutionary quantum leaps.
i guess we need to continue the discussion. Battery chemistry is well known by multiple companies and institutions. You are missing Musk's point. It's all about manufacturing, to take advantage of the various chemistries to save cost and improve performance. The tabless battery patent combined with a silicon anode and no cobalt nickel cathode is a quantum leap in both performance and manufacturing. The larger size with the tabless temperature regulation allows and increase in power, reduction in weight. and over 50% lower cost per KWH. The temperature reduction combined with new fabricating technology allows inexpensive silicon to be used for the anode. The side benefit for the new batteries is to allow their use to create an honeycomb structure for the center of the car, with no separate battery pack. The batteries are currently being produced in the pilot Roadrunner plant.

He announced a new processing method for raw silicon that would reduce factory size by a factor of 90%. His current gigafactory design can produce 130 gigawatts of batteries. The new procedures and batteries will allow a factory to produce a terawatt of batteries with a smaller footprint. He is combing mining operations for lithium and nickel into his vertical integration. He even has a more economical and environmental method of mining lithium and has bought the source land.

He has solid state battery technology with his Maxwell acquisition. They can make solid state batteries, but have determined that for now and the foreseeable future they are too expensive and slow to manufacture and to scale up to mass production.

Throughout his presentation he made it clear that all of these goals are underproduction or in the planning stage and he outlined the first three years schedule. It takes time to build factories. I don't think anyone else is building them as fast.

There were other things covered in his "insane" battery day that I haven't mentioned here. His last remark was that the technology of batteries was not exclusive and that Tesla could be matched by others. but that he would win on manufacturing.
 

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Musk "announces" a lot of things. What he delivers is frequently different. The ACTUAL returns on cost savings, performance, etc from actual production are often very different from the "coulds", "wills", and "mights" used in the presentation.

Clearly it is a matter of opinion at this point, and arguing about them is truly pointless. We'll know 3 years from now what the actual repercussions are of these announcements.
 

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Yup, and disclosed today, the new batteries are already in battery packs in cars that have been testing them for several months. Giga Shanghai has already been producing cars, making the Model 3 the best selling EV in China in August. Giga Berlin is ahead of schedule, with additional land purchased for batteries. Model 3 with import costs and duties is number one EV in Europe in August. Giga Texas is ahead of schedule, progressing faster than Berlin, will be making the new batteries, Model Ys, Cyber Trucks, and the Semi. The new batteries will make Cyber Truck, Semi, and Plaid Model S meet their claimed performance. OK, we'll see.
 

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Good thread, I'm in favor of any technology that makes something better and cheaper so i hope that Musk is on track for both. Unfortunately, for me, battery and electric motor operating parameters are limited to 'if I push the button and nothing happens then maybe the battery is dead'.
 

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The battery day announcements may not have been revolutionary, but were still positive. They just have to tone down the hype a bit so it doesn’t detract from the actual news. To be fair to Tesla, most of the noise comes from the fan-boys screaming ‘game-over’ and other nonsense.

Thumbs up for the battery production and design changes.

While the mega-casting may make it easier to produce a vehicle, its going to drive repair costs through the roof. You cant bend a casting back into shape, nor can you weld cracks or other damage, the integrity of the casting would be compromised. So do you replace the entire casting, or total the car?

Plaid is well, another uber rich car we don’t need. The more affordable model for 2022-23 is bigger news.

With all the companies throwing billions into battery research, I hope to hear more good news from others in the coming months.
 
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...While the mega-casting may make it easier to produce a vehicle, its going to drive repair costs through the roof. You cant bend a casting back into shape, nor can you weld cracks or other damage, the integrity of the casting would be compromised. So do you replace the entire casting, or total the car?...
If you bend the previous 70 part rear frame that is welded, riveted and bolted together you still have the same straightening problem. I'd rather have a more rigid less expensive car.
 

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If you bend the previous 70 part rear frame that is welded, riveted and bolted together you still have the same straightening problem. I'd rather have a more rigid less expensive car.
Of course on a high-impact accident, most cars are toast.

On a non-tesla auto body, in a moderate collision they can properly realign a frame and replace cross-members etc (go to a reputable body shop). A moderate collision in a new Tesla can damage the casting, and then what would have been a repairable event could total the vehicle.

A repairable vehicle is better for the resale value (and used car market), insurance costs, and the environment. Just something to consider.
 

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Without any knowledge about the malleability or engineering of the Tesla proprietary aluminum alloy used in creating this remarkable new light weight and efficient method of manufacturing the Model Y's structure, that is an extraordinary stretch to criticize Tesla. The next step in the process is a one piece casting of the front structure. Then there will be a central structure that replaces the current frame and battery pack with a one piece honeycomb that includes the batteries as part of the structure, allowing the batteries to be installed further inward from the edge. The whole package will make the cars lighter, more rigid and much cheaper to manufacture and perform better, ergo better value to the customer. BTW, monocoque unibody structures are equally difficult to repair. Cars are designed today with crumple zones for the safety of occupants, further increasing cost of repair.

I'd rather have the car be totaled if hit that hard.

There are videos, if you are interested that show that the previous frame is virtually identical to the casting and likely to be as expensive to repair.
 

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Without any knowledge about the malleability or engineering of the Tesla proprietary aluminum alloy used in creating this remarkable new light weight and efficient method of manufacturing the Model Y's structure, that is an extraordinary stretch to criticize Tesla. The next step in the process is a one piece casting of the front structure. Then there will be a central structure that replaces the current frame and battery pack with a one piece honeycomb that includes the batteries as part of the structure, allowing the batteries to be installed further inward from the edge. The whole package will make the cars lighter, more rigid and much cheaper to manufacture and perform better, ergo better value to the customer. BTW, monocoque unibody structures are equally difficult to repair. Cars are designed today with crumple zones for the safety of occupants, further increasing cost of repair.

I'd rather have the car be totaled if hit that hard.

There are videos, if you are interested that show that the previous frame is virtually identical to the casting and likely to be as expensive to repair.
i have seen the videos, and the new casting is much better than the previous Tesla builds.

Its not criticism, just an observation based on the casting process in general. There are trade-offs if too rigid or malleable. I will concede that we need to wait and see how the mega-casts perform when impacted.

Also, Tesla still needs to maintain the same crumple-zones to absorb the force of the impact, it is a safety requirement. On a side note: I’m curious as to how Tesla will address crumple-zones with the Cybertruck’s stainless steel exoskeleton when the official production build is released.

The battery pack integration with the frame is a big improvement. Other manufacturers are already doing this, including Ford with the MMe (as per Ron Heiser, Chief Engineer during an interview with Jalopnik, November, 2019).

As more manufacturers start designing serious BEVs, the more innovation will result.
 

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i have seen the videos, and the new casting is much better than the previous Tesla builds.

Its not criticism, just an observation based on the casting process in general. There are trade-offs if too rigid or malleable. I will concede that we need to wait and see how the mega-casts perform when impacted.

Also, Tesla still needs to maintain the same crumple-zones to absorb the force of the impact, it is a safety requirement. On a side note: I’m curious as to how Tesla will address crumple-zones with the Cybertruck’s stainless steel exoskeleton when the official production build is released.

The battery pack integration with the frame is a big improvement. Other manufacturers are already doing this, including Ford with the MMe (as per Ron Heiser, Chief Engineer during an interview with Jalopnik, November, 2019).

As more manufacturers start designing serious BEVs, the more innovation will result.
Maybe the production Cybertruck will look more like this one, except silver instead of blue:

2594
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
His 2 to 3 year initial timeline includes building factories and tooling to begin volume production.
...
It's a long term plan that cannot be built in a day. The rest of the industry beware.
2~3 Elon years. How many is that for the rest of us who count a year as the time it takes earth to circle the sun once?
To be fair, he still has 3 months to roll out a fleet of self-driving taxis for ride sharing.

Seriously, Elon is to be admired for leading the industry forward but we should take everything he says with a healthy dose of skepticism. Particularly on the timeframe. Still, I do hope he's successful in delivering everything announced sooner than later.
 
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